Comments on: Sammy hits 600. But will he go to the Hall? http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/ In-your-face baseball commentary Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:12:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Coley http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52736 Coley Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:43:57 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52736 I would have no problem keeping Bagwell out. He was a power hitter in the steroid era, and 450 HRs is good, but not Hall of Fame good. But more to the point, Bagwell has never done anything to disgrace himself the way Sosa did lying to Congress. Frankly, I have less of a problem with Sosa's steroid use -- or even his corked bat, for that matter -- than I do with the fact that he told Congress he COULDN'T SPEAK ENGLISH! I'm sorry, but on that day he flushed his credibility straight down the toilet. And his claim to a spot in the Hall, as far as I'm concerned. I would have no problem keeping Bagwell out. He was a power hitter in the steroid era, and 450 HRs is good, but not Hall of Fame good.

But more to the point, Bagwell has never done anything to disgrace himself the way Sosa did lying to Congress. Frankly, I have less of a problem with Sosa’s steroid use — or even his corked bat, for that matter — than I do with the fact that he told Congress he COULDN’T SPEAK ENGLISH! I’m sorry, but on that day he flushed his credibility straight down the toilet. And his claim to a spot in the Hall, as far as I’m concerned.

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]]> By: Kevin http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52732 Kevin Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:12:39 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52732 Okay then...do you put Bagwell in the Hall? He could have just as easily used steroids - he fell apart in the last couple years too - but since he wasn't such a big name, he wasn't called in front of Congress, so he doesn't get ripped the way Sosa and McGwire do. I do think Sosa used steroids, as did most other players from the era. But because we don't have proof of who did and didn't use, we really can't keep someone out of the Hall just because their name happened to be one of the ones that came up as guilty. Okay then…do you put Bagwell in the Hall? He could have just as easily used steroids – he fell apart in the last couple years too – but since he wasn’t such a big name, he wasn’t called in front of Congress, so he doesn’t get ripped the way Sosa and McGwire do.

I do think Sosa used steroids, as did most other players from the era. But because we don’t have proof of who did and didn’t use, we really can’t keep someone out of the Hall just because their name happened to be one of the ones that came up as guilty.

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]]> By: Coley http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52731 Coley Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:00:11 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52731 McGwire was also plagued by back problems. He might have put up better career numbers than Sosa if he had been able to stay healthy. Regardless, the point is that Sosa and McGwire both used steroids. There's simply no doubt. And as such neither belongs in the Hall. McGwire was also plagued by back problems. He might have put up better career numbers than Sosa if he had been able to stay healthy.

Regardless, the point is that Sosa and McGwire both used steroids. There’s simply no doubt. And as such neither belongs in the Hall.

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]]> By: Greg http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52733 Greg Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:06:09 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52733 Actually, 1987 ( When McGwire hit his 49) WAS considered an unusual year of high homeruns, the "'juiced ball", etc. That was the year when many rookies and singles hitters hit 20-30 or more homeruns ( before this was common). I think even Wade Boggs hit 24 and Ricky was in the high 20s. Matt Nokes, Larry Sheets, anyone? Kevin Seitzer and Wally Joyner as sluggers? MCGwire, George Bell and Dawson in the 40s,etc. AND, Sosa's career ( peak anyway) was a lot better than McGwire if you look at more all-around stats like RBI, AVG, MVP performances, etc. Mcgwire's career numbers look like Dave Kingman in the steroid era. Sosa's performance was a lot broader. McGwire had all his huge HR years in the same years when lots of people were hitting HRs. He was no Babe Ruth. Actually, 1987 ( When McGwire hit his 49) WAS considered an unusual year of high homeruns, the “‘juiced ball”, etc.

That was the year when many rookies and singles hitters hit 20-30 or more homeruns ( before this was common). I think even Wade Boggs hit 24 and Ricky was in the high 20s. Matt Nokes, Larry Sheets, anyone? Kevin Seitzer and Wally Joyner as sluggers? MCGwire, George Bell and Dawson in the 40s,etc.

AND, Sosa’s career ( peak anyway) was a lot better than McGwire if you look at more all-around stats like RBI, AVG, MVP performances, etc. Mcgwire’s career numbers look like Dave Kingman in the steroid era. Sosa’s performance was a lot broader.

McGwire had all his huge HR years in the same years when lots of people were hitting HRs. He was no Babe Ruth.

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]]> By: Mitch http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52735 Mitch Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:59:44 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52735 ...mediocre slugger before the steroid era, hit an ungodly amount of homeruns during the steroid era, production drastically dropped at the end of the steroid era, body subsequently broke down, all but admitted guilt at the congressional hearings...Kevin, would you like to see the vial? Good grief. …mediocre slugger before the steroid era, hit an ungodly amount of homeruns during the steroid era, production drastically dropped at the end of the steroid era, body subsequently broke down, all but admitted guilt at the congressional hearings…Kevin, would you like to see the vial? Good grief.

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]]> By: Kevin http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-52734 Kevin Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:02:13 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-52734 Wait a minute...what\'s the evidence that Sosa used steroids again? He got bigger as he got older? He hit a lot of home runs? I know he was called in front of Congress, but that was because he was one of the biggest names in the sport, not because they actually had any proof that he did steroids. How can you keep him out of the Hall? Wait a minute…what\’s the evidence that Sosa used steroids again? He got bigger as he got older? He hit a lot of home runs? I know he was called in front of Congress, but that was because he was one of the biggest names in the sport, not because they actually had any proof that he did steroids. How can you keep him out of the Hall?

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-15958 Nick Kapur Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:09:55 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-15958 I have even less faith in Gillick than even whatever faith left Coley still has. The fact is, he's super old. Look at his moves. He's GM'ing like it's still the mid-90s. Gillick is like the Jose Mesa of the GM'ing world - an aging veteran who's all "track record" and not much else. I have even less faith in Gillick than even whatever faith left Coley still has. The fact is, he’s super old. Look at his moves. He’s GM’ing like it’s still the mid-90s.

Gillick is like the Jose Mesa of the GM’ing world – an aging veteran who’s all “track record” and not much else.

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]]> By: Coley Ward http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-15934 Coley Ward Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:26:33 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-15934 It's hard to take issue w/ the Eaton signing the day after the guy pitched a 7 inning shutout. But I see your point. What kills me about Moyer is that we're paying him for two years. It's the same thing w/ Gordon. It's one thing to sign these geezers to one-year deals, but to sign them for longer than that just seems crazy. It’s hard to take issue w/ the Eaton signing the day after the guy pitched a 7 inning shutout. But I see your point.

What kills me about Moyer is that we’re paying him for two years. It’s the same thing w/ Gordon. It’s one thing to sign these geezers to one-year deals, but to sign them for longer than that just seems crazy.

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-15932 Paul Moro Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:20:31 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-15932 I do agree on Mesa. We knew the guy was useless to begin with. But for some odd reason, "track record" counts for so much when you're a pitcher. I guess the thinking is that if they've been around long enough, they must've done something right. And Moyer hasn't been that bad as to label him a bad signing. To be honest, he's done better than I thought he would. I do agree that there is something wrong with Gillick's thinking on this one (bring in an aging flyball pitcher into a hitter's park?), but the results haven't been terrible. If he wasn't in Philly, his ERA would probably be around 4.30 or lower. In today's MLB, that ain't bad. And they're only paying 10 million over two years. I'd call that a decent rate of return. If I were you, I'd have more problems with the Eaton signing. And I still have no idea why you guys starter the year with Lieber in the pen. I do agree on Mesa. We knew the guy was useless to begin with. But for some odd reason, “track record” counts for so much when you’re a pitcher. I guess the thinking is that if they’ve been around long enough, they must’ve done something right.

And Moyer hasn’t been that bad as to label him a bad signing. To be honest, he’s done better than I thought he would. I do agree that there is something wrong with Gillick’s thinking on this one (bring in an aging flyball pitcher into a hitter’s park?), but the results haven’t been terrible. If he wasn’t in Philly, his ERA would probably be around 4.30 or lower. In today’s MLB, that ain’t bad. And they’re only paying 10 million over two years. I’d call that a decent rate of return.

If I were you, I’d have more problems with the Eaton signing. And I still have no idea why you guys starter the year with Lieber in the pen.

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]]> By: Coley Ward http://umpbump.com/press/2007/06/21/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/comment-page-1/#comment-15930 Coley Ward Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:34:48 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/sammy-hits-600-but-will-he-go-to-the-hall/#comment-15930 Paul, I agree with you that dealing Thome was necessary and that failing to thoroughly examine Freddy Garcia was folly. But there were better options out there than Jamie Moyer and Tom Gordon. And there is no defense for signing Jose Mesa. It can't be defended. It just can't. Paul, I agree with you that dealing Thome was necessary and that failing to thoroughly examine Freddy Garcia was folly.

But there were better options out there than Jamie Moyer and Tom Gordon.

And there is no defense for signing Jose Mesa. It can’t be defended. It just can’t.

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