Comments on: Just when Scott Proctor thought he was safe… http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:48:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53703 Nick Kapur Thu, 01 Nov 2007 02:36:52 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53703 melissa, I completely disagree. I would MUCH rather have A-Rod than Joe Torre. A-Rod was worth 14 extra wins to his team last year above an average third baseman. How many extra wins was Joe Torre worth to his team above an average manager? Maybe 1 or 2, if any. Having a good manager is great, but ultimately it's the players on the field who win or lose. Managers can lose games for their team by making stupid moves, but it's pretty hard for a manager alone to add a lot of extra wins. Sure, Joe Torre won some championships in New York, but he had great, GREAT players. And he still didn't win 7 out of 12 years. And Joe Torre managed for 14 years in the majors before he came to the Yankees, and didn't win a thing. It all starts with great players. The Dodgers are much more likely to improve their record next season by signing A-Rod and not Joe Torre, than by signing Joe Torre and not A-Rod. melissa,

I completely disagree. I would MUCH rather have A-Rod than Joe Torre. A-Rod was worth 14 extra wins to his team last year above an average third baseman. How many extra wins was Joe Torre worth to his team above an average manager? Maybe 1 or 2, if any.

Having a good manager is great, but ultimately it’s the players on the field who win or lose. Managers can lose games for their team by making stupid moves, but it’s pretty hard for a manager alone to add a lot of extra wins.

Sure, Joe Torre won some championships in New York, but he had great, GREAT players. And he still didn’t win 7 out of 12 years. And Joe Torre managed for 14 years in the majors before he came to the Yankees, and didn’t win a thing.

It all starts with great players. The Dodgers are much more likely to improve their record next season by signing A-Rod and not Joe Torre, than by signing Joe Torre and not A-Rod.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53698 melissa Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:10:26 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53698 Nick, Even if the Dodgers overpaid Torre they still have plenty of money to get whatever players they would want, it's not an either or proposition. Say they pay him $6 million/year, that won't limit their payroll. I agree that young managers can come in and do a sufficient job. I think Ozzie Guillen was an example of a young manager that came in and helped an organization get to and win a Series. I also believe that there are veteran managers that are difference makers such as Tony LaRussa, Lou Piniella, and Bobby Cox, all worth "over-paying." Don't you think a ball club would be better off bringing in a great manager than a great player such as A-Rod? Nick,
Even if the Dodgers overpaid Torre they still have plenty of money to get whatever players they would want, it’s not an either or proposition. Say they pay him $6 million/year, that won’t limit their payroll. I agree that young managers can come in and do a sufficient job. I think Ozzie Guillen was an example of a young manager that came in and helped an organization get to and win a Series. I also believe that there are veteran managers that are difference makers such as Tony LaRussa, Lou Piniella, and Bobby Cox, all worth “over-paying.” Don’t you think a ball club would be better off bringing in a great manager than a great player such as A-Rod?

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53697 Sarah Green Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:33:02 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53697 Bwahaha. Poor Joe Torre. He may be destined for an early grave if he goes from dealing with crazy George Steinbrenner to dealing with crazy Frank McCourt. Bwahaha. Poor Joe Torre. He may be destined for an early grave if he goes from dealing with crazy George Steinbrenner to dealing with crazy Frank McCourt.

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]]> By: Rich http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53702 Rich Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:05:46 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53702 Third most important job: dealing with management. Torre is quite good at that as well. Third most important job: dealing with management. Torre is quite good at that as well.

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53699 Nick Kapur Wed, 31 Oct 2007 05:33:37 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53699 melissa, I think paying an extra premium to get a "name" manager is an even worse idea than paying extra for a big-name player. I guarantee you there are tons of very capable managers in the minor leagues who can succeed at the major league level. But someone has to give them a shot. How did Joe Torre or any of the other famous managers first get hired? I'd rather see the Dodgers try to find the next Joe Torre, whom they could hire for a fraction of the cost, rather than hiring the actual Joe Torre. To me hiring Torre at an exorbitant price just reeks of desperation and a desire to be thought well of by the press and the fans rather than being a smart baseball move. melissa, I think paying an extra premium to get a “name” manager is an even worse idea than paying extra for a big-name player.

I guarantee you there are tons of very capable managers in the minor leagues who can succeed at the major league level. But someone has to give them a shot. How did Joe Torre or any of the other famous managers first get hired?

I’d rather see the Dodgers try to find the next Joe Torre, whom they could hire for a fraction of the cost, rather than hiring the actual Joe Torre. To me hiring Torre at an exorbitant price just reeks of desperation and a desire to be thought well of by the press and the fans rather than being a smart baseball move.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53701 melissa Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:27:56 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53701 Nick, You are probably right with your thinking that the Dodgers' money could be better spent than on Joe Torre. Don't the Dodgers have plenty of money to spend on a better manager as well as the rest of their ball club? If not Torre then who? Nick,
You are probably right with your thinking that the Dodgers’ money could be better spent than on Joe Torre. Don’t the Dodgers have plenty of money to spend on a better manager as well as the rest of their ball club? If not Torre then who?

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-53700 Paul Moro Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:30:38 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-53700 Wow. I didn't even think about the potential Proctor-Torre reunion until this. Well done, Nick. Wow. I didn’t even think about the potential Proctor-Torre reunion until this. Well done, Nick.

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-30118 Nick Kapur Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:25:35 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-30118 If I were Kenny Williams I actually probably would have blown up this aging team, trading Dye, Buehrle, Thome, and Garland for everything I could get. But I understand how it can be hard to part with aging but beloved veterans, especially the ones who brought home a World Series title. Also, that article you cited was written 2 years ago, right after the White Sox had just won the World Series, so naturally everything looked rosy back then to a Chicago-based writer like Phil Rogers. If I were Kenny Williams I actually probably would have blown up this aging team, trading Dye, Buehrle, Thome, and Garland for everything I could get. But I understand how it can be hard to part with aging but beloved veterans, especially the ones who brought home a World Series title.

Also, that article you cited was written 2 years ago, right after the White Sox had just won the World Series, so naturally everything looked rosy back then to a Chicago-based writer like Phil Rogers.

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-30117 Nick Kapur Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:19:02 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-30117 I really don't want to harsh on the White Sox too much, Alejandro. They definitely had a good team in 2005, but it is also true that they had a lot of players put up career years all at once, and they also outperformed their win-expectancy by a large margin, so it was not a surprise that they didn't do as well the next season, despite returning the team intact (although it's pretty hard to win a World Series under any circumstances!). But I am also not sold on the White Sox as a perennial contender in the next few years ahead. I think they are on the edge - ie in the 85 win range. Which means if things break right they can win 93 or something and make the dance, but when things break wrong, like they did this year, they'll be back in the 70s. The White Sox do have some good prospects, but they also have a lot of holes to fill - bullpen, second base, outfield, rotation. Meanwhile, the established players are aging and Garland and Thome are going to be free agents after next season. I really don’t want to harsh on the White Sox too much, Alejandro. They definitely had a good team in 2005, but it is also true that they had a lot of players put up career years all at once, and they also outperformed their win-expectancy by a large margin, so it was not a surprise that they didn’t do as well the next season, despite returning the team intact (although it’s pretty hard to win a World Series under any circumstances!).

But I am also not sold on the White Sox as a perennial contender in the next few years ahead. I think they are on the edge – ie in the 85 win range. Which means if things break right they can win 93 or something and make the dance, but when things break wrong, like they did this year, they’ll be back in the 70s.

The White Sox do have some good prospects, but they also have a lot of holes to fill – bullpen, second base, outfield, rotation. Meanwhile, the established players are aging and Garland and Thome are going to be free agents after next season.

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]]> By: Alejandro Leal http://umpbump.com/press/2007/10/30/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/comment-page-1/#comment-30066 Alejandro Leal Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:00:04 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/just-when-scott-proctor-thought-he-was-safe/#comment-30066 Nick One-year-wonders??!!! I don't think winning 96 games (like they did in 2006) is systematic of a fluke. Yes, the White Sox were able to put it together in 2005, something they haven't been able to replicate any other year since 2001 (when the Williams reign began), but you have to take into account that the division became the best in baseball in a manner of two or three years. That said, I'm not excusing the team's poor play this year. Oh and I will ask my main man Phil Rogers to further debunk your one-year-wonder theory. How about I pull a 2006 article, titled <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2447208" rel="nofollow">Williams has (Chi)Sox loaded for years to come</a>, in which, as you may imagine, the point is made that the Sox can and will contend for years to come. The only prospect mentioned in that article that isn't with the White Sox today is Brandon McCarthy, and well all know how well his season fared in Texas. Coincidentally, that same article can serve as a talking point to argue that the Indians <em>will not be back in the ALCS</em> next year. (In the court of law, isn't that against the rules? Using one argument to show guilt, but then using the same argument to show innocence in another tort?) Nick

One-year-wonders??!!! I don’t think winning 96 games (like they did in 2006) is systematic of a fluke. Yes, the White Sox were able to put it together in 2005, something they haven’t been able to replicate any other year since 2001 (when the Williams reign began), but you have to take into account that the division became the best in baseball in a manner of two or three years.

That said, I’m not excusing the team’s poor play this year.

Oh and I will ask my main man Phil Rogers to further debunk your one-year-wonder theory. How about I pull a 2006 article, titled Williams has (Chi)Sox loaded for years to come, in which, as you may imagine, the point is made that the Sox can and will contend for years to come.

The only prospect mentioned in that article that isn’t with the White Sox today is Brandon McCarthy, and well all know how well his season fared in Texas.

Coincidentally, that same article can serve as a talking point to argue that the Indians will not be back in the ALCS next year.

(In the court of law, isn’t that against the rules? Using one argument to show guilt, but then using the same argument to show innocence in another tort?)

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