Comments on: Ghosts of Scandals Past http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:15:35 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Gene Carney http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54139 Gene Carney Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:44:14 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54139 Sarah, Just now reading your response to my post. There are no resources the PROVE Jackson's innocence, but I think the evidence that is available should at least force MLB to end his ban (if his death didn't already end it). See issue #387 of my NOTES at www.baseball1.com/notes for a summary of his case (MLB has a copy). Last month, the Chicago Historical Society bought, for $100,000, a huge collection of B-Sox documents. I've only seen a tiny fraction (see issues #425-426), am itching to get at the rest. I think "Eight Men Out" portrayed Comiskey as a major Scrooge, unfairly -- he was just an ordinary owner/skinflint. The Sox did not plot to Fix the Series to get even with Commy, they just saw a chance to get some easy money. Regarding Jackson, we cannot corroborate his attempts to warn the team, but I do believe there is evidence he asked to be benched before Game One, which is almost the same as a warning that something shady was in the works. If you've seen my book, you know there is evidence that the fix was known to Comiskey & Ban Johnson (AL Prez) before Game One, and they could have headed it off with a full investigation. Instead, we got a one-year cover-up. Gene Sarah,

Just now reading your response to my post. There are no resources the PROVE Jackson’s innocence, but I think the evidence that is available should at least force MLB to end his ban (if his death didn’t already end it). See issue #387 of my NOTES at http://www.baseball1.com/notes for a summary of his case (MLB has a copy).

Last month, the Chicago Historical Society bought, for $100,000, a huge collection of B-Sox documents. I’ve only seen a tiny fraction (see issues #425-426), am itching to get at the rest.

I think “Eight Men Out” portrayed Comiskey as a major Scrooge, unfairly — he was just an ordinary owner/skinflint. The Sox did not plot to Fix the Series to get even with Commy, they just saw a chance to get some easy money.

Regarding Jackson, we cannot corroborate his attempts to warn the team, but I do believe there is evidence he asked to be benched before Game One, which is almost the same as a warning that something shady was in the works. If you’ve seen my book, you know there is evidence that the fix was known to Comiskey & Ban Johnson (AL Prez) before Game One, and they could have headed it off with a full investigation. Instead, we got a one-year cover-up.

Gene

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54138 Sarah Green Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:04:46 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54138 Paul, Rose did not bet on games he expected his team to lose (based on, for instance, the identity of the starting pitcher). Is that the same as throwing games? No. But is it still really bad? Yes. Plus, he did it well after the Black Sox scandal. He knew what would happen if he was caught. He just didn't care. Ken, your viewpoint is one that is very trendy right now. However, based on the fact that these players are human beings with families and ought to serve as role models, I find your cavalier attitude toward their health distasteful. Paul, Rose did not bet on games he expected his team to lose (based on, for instance, the identity of the starting pitcher). Is that the same as throwing games? No. But is it still really bad? Yes. Plus, he did it well after the Black Sox scandal. He knew what would happen if he was caught. He just didn’t care.

Ken, your viewpoint is one that is very trendy right now. However, based on the fact that these players are human beings with families and ought to serve as role models, I find your cavalier attitude toward their health distasteful.

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54137 Paul Moro Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:45:04 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54137 Interesting stance, Ken. But if I bet someone that my team will win, is that such a big deal? If I said I'd throw the game, then you have a point. Did Pete Rose actually throw a game? Not that I've heard of at least. Unless you're counting all those times he wrote his own name in the lineup to pad his stats. Interesting stance, Ken. But if I bet someone that my team will win, is that such a big deal? If I said I’d throw the game, then you have a point. Did Pete Rose actually throw a game? Not that I’ve heard of at least. Unless you’re counting all those times he wrote his own name in the lineup to pad his stats.

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]]> By: Ken Dynamo http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54136 Ken Dynamo Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:39:31 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54136 gambling complete destroys the game. steroids make it more fun to watch. these arent even close to comparable. i couldnt care less that people roided when there was no testing. gambling complete destroys the game. steroids make it more fun to watch. these arent even close to comparable.

i couldnt care less that people roided when there was no testing.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54128 Sarah Green Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:39:11 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54128 Gene, I would be interested to know what resources there are out there that prove Jackson's innocence. (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Burying-Black-Sox-Baseballs-Succeeded/dp/1574889729" rel="nofollow">Your book</a> seems to be extremely well-sourced!) The main source of my information, the Chicago Historical Society, whose website I quoted above, is certainly sympathetic to the players. (I sometimes found it overly sympathetic, such was when they seemed to suggest that Comiskey fomented resentment among his players by paying some of them more than twice as much as others, and that this resentment naturally fed into the "underpaid" players taking money to fix games. I put "underpaid" in quotes because their examples of highly-paid and underpaid players are Eddie Collins and Chick Gandil, respectively. Now, Collins is a Hall of Famer. Gandil retired after 9 seasons and a .277 batting average--not exactly the sort of career that would compel a huge payday.) Nonetheless, I found their treatment of the Black Sox scandal fairly even-handed and well sourced with external links to primary sources, including the transcript Joe Jackson's court testimony. On the other hand, <a href="http://www.chicagohs.org/history/blacksox/joe1.html" rel="nofollow">their bio of Shoeless Joe</a> seems extremely sympathetic (rather than objective) and contains numerous suppositions with no clear evidentiary support. I would like to believe the article's claims that Jackson repeatedly tried to tell Comiskey about the conspiracy, tried to refuse the envelope of money, and only "confessed" to fixing games because that's what Comiskey's lawyer told him to do, but without any footnotes or sourcing, I must remain skeptical. Yes, his individual stats in the Series were very good, but without some external corroboration, I can't just take Jackson's word that he wanted no part of the conspiracy. After all, the one primary document I have seen, Joe's grand jury testimony, does contain an admission: "We went ahead and threw the second game." Admittedly, however, given the other statements Joe makes in his testimony, this sentence seems more mysterious than illuminating. I guess I will just have to buy the book! Gene, I would be interested to know what resources there are out there that prove Jackson’s innocence. (Your book seems to be extremely well-sourced!) The main source of my information, the Chicago Historical Society, whose website I quoted above, is certainly sympathetic to the players. (I sometimes found it overly sympathetic, such was when they seemed to suggest that Comiskey fomented resentment among his players by paying some of them more than twice as much as others, and that this resentment naturally fed into the “underpaid” players taking money to fix games. I put “underpaid” in quotes because their examples of highly-paid and underpaid players are Eddie Collins and Chick Gandil, respectively. Now, Collins is a Hall of Famer. Gandil retired after 9 seasons and a .277 batting average–not exactly the sort of career that would compel a huge payday.) Nonetheless, I found their treatment of the Black Sox scandal fairly even-handed and well sourced with external links to primary sources, including the transcript Joe Jackson’s court testimony. On the other hand, their bio of Shoeless Joe seems extremely sympathetic (rather than objective) and contains numerous suppositions with no clear evidentiary support. I would like to believe the article’s claims that Jackson repeatedly tried to tell Comiskey about the conspiracy, tried to refuse the envelope of money, and only “confessed” to fixing games because that’s what Comiskey’s lawyer told him to do, but without any footnotes or sourcing, I must remain skeptical. Yes, his individual stats in the Series were very good, but without some external corroboration, I can’t just take Jackson’s word that he wanted no part of the conspiracy. After all, the one primary document I have seen, Joe’s grand jury testimony, does contain an admission: “We went ahead and threw the second game.” Admittedly, however, given the other statements Joe makes in his testimony, this sentence seems more mysterious than illuminating. I guess I will just have to buy the book!

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]]> By: Gene Carney http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54134 Gene Carney Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:37:19 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54134 I've done a lot of research on the "Black Sox" and when I talk about it to groups, invariably someone will compare 1919 to the steroid mess. My focus in my book "Burying the Black Sox" (2006, Potomac Books) was on Baseball's COVER-UP of the Fix, which lasted nearly a year. Jackson never admitted throwing games, he told the grand jury in 1920 that he played to win, but the "leaks" (which proved to be in error) condemned him in the press. Maybe it's bad luck to be a LF on your way to Cooperstown, with a grand jury detour. "Eight Men Out" is a great movie but it is not very accurate -- probably no Cicotte bonus, Comiskey probably not exceptionally tight. By the way, Hal Chase, the poster boy for tossed games, in NOT on baseball's ineligible list! I’ve done a lot of research on the “Black Sox” and when I talk about it to groups, invariably someone will compare 1919 to the steroid mess. My focus in my book “Burying the Black Sox” (2006, Potomac Books) was on Baseball’s COVER-UP of the Fix, which lasted nearly a year.

Jackson never admitted throwing games, he told the grand jury in 1920 that he played to win, but the “leaks” (which proved to be in error) condemned him in the press. Maybe it’s bad luck to be a LF on your way to Cooperstown, with a grand jury detour.

“Eight Men Out” is a great movie but it is not very accurate — probably no Cicotte bonus, Comiskey probably not exceptionally tight. By the way, Hal Chase, the poster boy for tossed games, in NOT on baseball’s ineligible list!

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54125 melissa Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:28:10 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54125 The current federal indictment for perjury claims to have blood samples of Bonds taken by BALCO that contain PED. If this is true it is definitive proof he took PED whether he claims to have known what he was ingesting. I also believe that part of the reason he is being charged with perjury is the fact that he claimed he didn't knowingly take steroids. Either way he did admit taking them. It will be interesting to see what additional proof comes out of the pending indictment. Federal prosecutors have a conviction rate in excess of 90% so it's highly likely they have definitive proof. The current federal indictment for perjury claims to have blood samples of Bonds taken by BALCO that contain PED. If this is true it is definitive proof he took PED whether he claims to have known what he was ingesting. I also believe that part of the reason he is being charged with perjury is the fact that he claimed he didn’t knowingly take steroids. Either way he did admit taking them. It will be interesting to see what additional proof comes out of the pending indictment. Federal prosecutors have a conviction rate in excess of 90% so it’s highly likely they have definitive proof.

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54127 Paul Moro Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:55:21 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54127 But he also said under oath that he didn't know what he was taking at the time, which isn't an admission of "guilt". It's maddening, I know, but that's just the way it works. But he also said under oath that he didn’t know what he was taking at the time, which isn’t an admission of “guilt”. It’s maddening, I know, but that’s just the way it works.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54126 melissa Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:42:47 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54126 Bonds admitted using steroids under oath, is that not proof? Bonds admitted using steroids under oath, is that not proof?

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/12/ghosts-of-scandals-past/comment-page-1/#comment-54133 Sarah Green Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:15:02 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/ghosts-of-scandals-past/#comment-54133 Coley, no, I don't think you can get rid of the records. But I don't think you need to, either. The asterisk will be there whether it's there in black-and-white or only there in spirit. I think a useful parallel is segregation in baseball. Think of how different all these records would look if African American players had either been allowed to play in the majors, or if their statistics had at least been included in the official record books! To my mind, even supposedly pure, pre-steroid records were asterisked by the fact that they only took into account the accomplishments white players. Coley, no, I don’t think you can get rid of the records. But I don’t think you need to, either. The asterisk will be there whether it’s there in black-and-white or only there in spirit. I think a useful parallel is segregation in baseball. Think of how different all these records would look if African American players had either been allowed to play in the majors, or if their statistics had at least been included in the official record books! To my mind, even supposedly pure, pre-steroid records were asterisked by the fact that they only took into account the accomplishments white players.

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