Comments on: Random thoughts on the Mitchell Report. Thoughts that have been slightly altered by performance-diminishing drugs. http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:48:13 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54168 Sarah Green Sat, 15 Dec 2007 03:43:10 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54168 Tom, I haven't seen this chart of which you speak, so I will look for it. But I couldn't wait to include this pertinent quote from Tom Verducci's article today: "McNamee said he injected the steroids into Clemens' buttocks after the Jays returned home from a trip to Florida. Up to that point Clemens was 6-6 with a 3.27 ERA. After that he was literally unbeatable: 14-0 with a 2.29 ERA. Think steroids work?" Tom, I haven’t seen this chart of which you speak, so I will look for it. But I couldn’t wait to include this pertinent quote from Tom Verducci’s article today: “McNamee said he injected the steroids into Clemens’ buttocks after the Jays returned home from a trip to Florida. Up to that point Clemens was 6-6 with a 3.27 ERA. After that he was literally unbeatable: 14-0 with a 2.29 ERA. Think steroids work?”

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54167 melissa Sat, 15 Dec 2007 01:20:26 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54167 Paul, You make a good point and it's possible the list was a complete fabrication. I would just suggest that it's possible the players on the initial list were implicated in some way but didn't meet Mitchell's burden of proof. It's also possible that whoever leaked it just didn't include all of the names. Hopefully there were at least a few players smart enough to have paid Radomski in cash thus leaving no paper trail. It seemed that the only names listed were ones connected to the Federal investigations of BALCO, Radomski and McNamee. There are other Federal investigations currently taking place which means more names may be forthcoming. No doubt more players had other sources that have yet to be uncovered. In most Latin American countries you can buy steroids off the shelf without a prescription. Sammy Sosa wasn't in the Mitchell Report but who doubts his use of steroids? Paul, You make a good point and it’s possible the list was a complete fabrication. I would just suggest that it’s possible the players on the initial list were implicated in some way but didn’t meet Mitchell’s burden of proof. It’s also possible that whoever leaked it just didn’t include all of the names. Hopefully there were at least a few players smart enough to have paid Radomski in cash thus leaving no paper trail. It seemed that the only names listed were ones connected to the Federal investigations of BALCO, Radomski and McNamee. There are other Federal investigations currently taking place which means more names may be forthcoming. No doubt more players had other sources that have yet to be uncovered. In most Latin American countries you can buy steroids off the shelf without a prescription. Sammy Sosa wasn’t in the Mitchell Report but who doubts his use of steroids?

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54166 Nick Kapur Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:29:54 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54166 Tom, charts like that are kind of silly, because these drugs have never been a *guarantee* of a lower ERA or whatever. What they are able to do is allow you to train longer and harder, recover faster from injury, and bounce back better over the long grind of the season. As you say, people did it when they were desperate and going downhill, so whose to day their ERA's wouldn't have been even worse without the drugs? And you still have to train right and be careful with the dosages and timing (which is why BALCO customers had all those complicated spreadsheets being kept for them). Barry Bonds blew out his elbow lifting weights the year he started on Steroids because he was trying to bulk up too fast. Random guys just buying a few doses through back channels and not really knowing what they are doing might well have no improvement or actually hurt their performance. Tom, charts like that are kind of silly, because these drugs have never been a *guarantee* of a lower ERA or whatever. What they are able to do is allow you to train longer and harder, recover faster from injury, and bounce back better over the long grind of the season. As you say, people did it when they were desperate and going downhill, so whose to day their ERA’s wouldn’t have been even worse without the drugs? And you still have to train right and be careful with the dosages and timing (which is why BALCO customers had all those complicated spreadsheets being kept for them). Barry Bonds blew out his elbow lifting weights the year he started on Steroids because he was trying to bulk up too fast. Random guys just buying a few doses through back channels and not really knowing what they are doing might well have no improvement or actually hurt their performance.

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]]> By: Tom Hoffman http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54164 Tom Hoffman Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:30:12 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54164 The chart on page C21 of today's New York Times is very interesting. If I'm reading it correctly, it hard to see any actual pattern of "performance enhancement", particularly in pitchers. Quite a few show deteriorating ERA's after starting the drugs. Maybe this was something that the desperate turned to as their arms started to go? The chart on page C21 of today’s New York Times is very interesting. If I’m reading it correctly, it hard to see any actual pattern of “performance enhancement”, particularly in pitchers. Quite a few show deteriorating ERA’s after starting the drugs. Maybe this was something that the desperate turned to as their arms started to go?

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54157 Paul Moro Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:32:57 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54157 It'd probably be a lot more fun if your idea was true, Melissa. But if that was the case, then it doesn't account for why a lot of names that appear on the Mitchell report are missing from the other list. It’d probably be a lot more fun if your idea was true, Melissa. But if that was the case, then it doesn’t account for why a lot of names that appear on the Mitchell report are missing from the other list.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54165 melissa Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:24:34 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54165 Was the initial leaked list a fake list or just not the final draft? It's very possible that those names were excluded in the final draft because Mitchell felt there wasn't enough corroborating evidence. Many more players were most likely implicated even though they weren't in the draft released to the public. The players named may just be the tip of the iceberg. Was the initial leaked list a fake list or just not the final draft? It’s very possible that those names were excluded in the final draft because Mitchell felt there wasn’t enough corroborating evidence. Many more players were most likely implicated even though they weren’t in the draft released to the public. The players named may just be the tip of the iceberg.

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]]> By: Coley Ward http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54163 Coley Ward Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:58:12 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54163 You're right. Trot was on the fake list. My bad. You’re right. Trot was on the fake list. My bad.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54162 Sarah Green Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:07:48 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54162 And Coley, Trot isn't named. What are you talking about? And Coley, Trot isn’t named. What are you talking about?

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54161 Sarah Green Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:05:29 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54161 Boston86, you are partially right. Yes, members of the '07 roster were named, but they in no way contributed to the '07 championship and the evidence about them indicated they used steroids prior to joining the Red Sox. In fact, Donnelly wasn't even on the "championship team" (ie, the postseason roster), a roster that Gagne had no business being part of given his performance in Boston during the regular season. I should have written, "no CONTRIBUTING members of the '04 or '07 championship teams" or "no members of the '04 or '07 championship teams who were USING STEROIDS AT THE TIME." Either of those would have worked. You are right, I was a bit sloppy. Perhaps because of the performance-diminishing substances I had imbibed. Regarding your Theo Theory, I'm not so sure. Yes, it shows Theo inquiring about and eventually hiring guys who had taken steroids in the past. But I think that's about all it shows. And doesn't it demonstrate that the Red Sox did cooperate with the investigation? I don't see how either of those are particularly damaging. The Dodgers' staff comes off <a href="http://umpbump.com/press/mitchell-report-excerpts/#more-1580" rel="nofollow">looking worse</a>. Boston86, you are partially right. Yes, members of the ‘07 roster were named, but they in no way contributed to the ‘07 championship and the evidence about them indicated they used steroids prior to joining the Red Sox. In fact, Donnelly wasn’t even on the “championship team” (ie, the postseason roster), a roster that Gagne had no business being part of given his performance in Boston during the regular season. I should have written, “no CONTRIBUTING members of the ‘04 or ‘07 championship teams” or “no members of the ‘04 or ‘07 championship teams who were USING STEROIDS AT THE TIME.” Either of those would have worked. You are right, I was a bit sloppy. Perhaps because of the performance-diminishing substances I had imbibed.

Regarding your Theo Theory, I’m not so sure. Yes, it shows Theo inquiring about and eventually hiring guys who had taken steroids in the past. But I think that’s about all it shows. And doesn’t it demonstrate that the Red Sox did cooperate with the investigation? I don’t see how either of those are particularly damaging. The Dodgers’ staff comes off looking worse.

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]]> By: coley http://umpbump.com/press/2007/12/14/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-54160 coley Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:02:49 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/random-thoughts-on-the-mitchell-report-thoughts-that-have-been-slightly-altered-by-performance-diminishing-drugs/#comment-54160 Yeah, #1 should be ammended to read, "nobody IMPORTANT from the 2004 or 2007 championship teams were named, except Trot, and at least it wasn't Papi or Tek." Yeah, #1 should be ammended to read, “nobody IMPORTANT from the 2004 or 2007 championship teams were named, except Trot, and at least it wasn’t Papi or Tek.”

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