Comments on: 33 Men (and one Woman) Out: The All-Time Worst Hall of Famers http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:48:13 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: BlackCowboy http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-2/#comment-59996 BlackCowboy Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:56:15 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-59996 Adam,Effa Manley was a white woman whose black husband was a Negro League owner,but Abe Manley was totally ineffectual,so Effa ran all aspects of the club's management,rare for a female in ANY business in the 30's and 40's,but as far as I know,she was the Negro Leagues' sole female ow- ner/executive. Adam,Effa Manley was a white woman whose black husband was a Negro League owner,but Abe Manley was totally ineffectual,so Effa ran all aspects of the club’s management,rare for a female in ANY business in the 30’s and 40’s,but as far as I know,she was the Negro Leagues’ sole female ow-
ner/executive.

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]]> By: Professor Emertitus P. Bagnolo http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-2/#comment-59779 Professor Emertitus P. Bagnolo Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:00:54 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-59779 Sir: I am a Cub Fan, not a White Sox Fan, so defending Ted Lyons is a stretch for me, but justice is justice and as a professor my math is better than fair: Your pick of Ted Lyons as a No-No Hall of Fame choice displays a lack of understanding of mathematics. For instance had Babe Ruth played at Wrigley field in the NL, instead of the parks of the American League where the average CF fence was 450 feet and the alley’s 405 feet instead of today’s average of CF-405 and alley’s 380, and the mound height then of 18” against today’s 10” and today’s livelier ball, Ruth would have hit according to the stats of several scientists, 1140-1250 home runs including over 104 one year-1921. (The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, Bill Jenkinson.) In his book Bill shows more than 40 balls hit over 405 which were either caught, or doubles or triples that year alone. The rigors of Pitchers for Sub .500 teams were incredible. During Lyons era of 21 years with the White Sox their record was 943-1513 a .384 win/loss average against Lyons 260-230 .531 Win loss ave. with a .367 era, translated to meaningful stats, he completed 72.9 % of his starts. Reversing the Sox Win loss records from .384.% to a .531 % would show Lyons at a record of 352-. If math is not your thing, I suggest looking at the stats of his Games, 594, with 484 started, 356 completed and of the 110 games in which he did not start but appeared in he finished 94. Using those stats in a meaningful reversal, his stats on a team which won at a .531 clip would boost his record to 352 wins-165 losses, or .684 and would drop his ERA to 2.67. However, even with his .367, he would with a strong team have won the 352 games shown above. A stress Conversion of his .367 ERA, if pitching for a team which winning % was the same as his with the number of complete games and games finished of 450 at a 531 %, would increase his win ratio to .684 or 352 wins 165 losses. He is presently at 260 wins 22nd above many Hall of Famers, the above would raise him to 9th. Mathematics is a ratio stat It is less difficult to win 300 games with a team which has a winning record every year, so the stats of pitchers who do and which have outstanding defenses and offenses, is always better that if they played with perrenial losers like the White Sox were in Lyons era. In complete games he ranks 22nd, below him are the following, many of which are Hall Of Famers; George Mullin 353 23 Charlie Buffinton 351 24 Chick Fraser 342 25 Clark Griffith 337 26 Red Ruffing 335 27 Silver King 329 28 Al Orth 324 29 Bill Hutchison 321 30 Burleigh Grimes 314 31 Joe McGinnity 314 Red Donahue 313 33 Guy Hecker 310 34 Bill Dinneen 306 35 Robin Roberts 305 36 Gaylord Perry 303 37 Ted Breitenstein 300 38 Bob Caruthers 298 39 Lefty Grove 298 Pink Hawley 297 41 Ed Morris 297 Mark Baldwin 296 43 Tommy Bond 294 44 Brickyard Kennedy 293 45 Eppa Rixey 290 46 Early Wynn 290 Bill Donovan 289 48 Bobby Mathews 289 Bert Cunningham 286 50 Wilbur Cooper 279 51 Bob Feller 279 Sadie McMahon 279 Jack Stivetts 278 54 Jack Taylor 278 Charlie Getzien 277 56 Red Faber 273 57 Mordecai Brown 271 58 Frank Dwyer 270 59 Jouett Meekin 270 Fergie Jenkins 267 61 Elton Chamberlain 264 62 Matt Kilroy 264 Jesse Tannehill 263 64 Doc White 262 65 Rube Waddell 261 66 Jack Chesbro 260 67 Red Ehret 260 Carl Hubbell 260 Larry Corcoran 256 70 Chief Bender 255 71 Bob Gibson 255 Steve Carlton 254 73 Frank Killen 253 74 Paul Derringer 251 75 Win Mercer 251 Sam Jones 250 77 Ed Walsh 250 Eddie Cicotte 249 79 Stump Wiedman 249 Herb Pennock 247 81 Bobo Newsom 246 82 George Bradley 245 83 Hooks Dauss 245 Phil Niekro 245 Harry Howell 244 86 Juan Marichal 244 John Ward 244 Jack Quinn 243 89 Bert Blyleven 242 90 Deacon Phillippe 242 Bucky Walters 242 Sam Leever 241 93 Kid Gleason 240 94 Addie Joss 234 95 George Uhle 232 96 Carl Mays 231 97 Tom Seaver 231 Harry Staley 231 Earl Moore Sir:
I am a Cub Fan, not a White Sox Fan, so defending Ted Lyons is a stretch for me, but justice is justice and as a professor my math is better than fair:

Your pick of Ted Lyons as a No-No Hall of Fame choice displays a lack of understanding of mathematics.

For instance had Babe Ruth played at Wrigley field in the NL, instead of the parks of the American League where the average CF fence was 450 feet and the alley’s 405 feet instead of today’s average of CF-405 and alley’s 380, and the mound height then of 18” against today’s 10” and today’s livelier ball, Ruth would have hit according to the stats of several scientists, 1140-1250 home runs including over 104 one year-1921. (The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, Bill Jenkinson.) In his book Bill shows more than 40 balls hit over 405 which were either caught, or doubles or triples that year alone.

The rigors of Pitchers for Sub .500 teams were incredible. During Lyons era of 21 years with the White Sox their record was 943-1513 a .384 win/loss average against Lyons 260-230 .531 Win loss ave. with a .367 era, translated to meaningful stats, he completed 72.9 % of his starts. Reversing the Sox Win loss records from .384.% to a .531 % would show Lyons at a record of 352-. If math is not your thing, I suggest looking at the stats of his Games, 594, with 484 started, 356 completed and of the 110 games in which he did not start but appeared in he finished 94.

Using those stats in a meaningful reversal, his stats on a team which won at a .531 clip would boost his record to 352 wins-165 losses, or .684 and would drop his ERA to 2.67. However, even with his .367, he would with a strong team have won the 352 games shown above.

A stress Conversion of his .367 ERA, if pitching for a team which winning % was the same as his with the number of complete games and games finished of 450 at a 531 %, would increase his win ratio to .684 or 352 wins 165 losses. He is presently at 260 wins 22nd above many Hall of Famers, the above would raise him to 9th. Mathematics is a ratio stat

It is less difficult to win 300 games with a team which has a winning record every year, so the stats of pitchers who do and which have outstanding defenses and offenses, is always better that if they played with perrenial losers like the White Sox were in Lyons era.

In complete games he ranks 22nd, below him are the following, many of which are Hall Of Famers;

George Mullin 353 23 Charlie Buffinton 351 24 Chick Fraser 342 25 Clark Griffith 337 26 Red Ruffing 335 27 Silver King 329 28 Al Orth 324 29 Bill Hutchison 321 30 Burleigh Grimes 314 31 Joe McGinnity 314 Red Donahue 313 33 Guy Hecker 310 34 Bill Dinneen 306 35 Robin Roberts 305 36 Gaylord Perry 303 37 Ted Breitenstein 300 38 Bob Caruthers 298 39 Lefty Grove 298 Pink Hawley 297 41 Ed Morris 297 Mark Baldwin 296 43 Tommy Bond 294 44 Brickyard Kennedy 293 45 Eppa Rixey 290 46 Early Wynn 290 Bill Donovan 289 48 Bobby Mathews 289 Bert Cunningham 286 50 Wilbur Cooper 279 51 Bob Feller 279 Sadie McMahon 279 Jack Stivetts 278 54 Jack Taylor 278 Charlie Getzien 277 56 Red Faber 273 57 Mordecai Brown 271 58 Frank Dwyer 270 59 Jouett Meekin 270 Fergie Jenkins 267 61 Elton Chamberlain 264 62 Matt Kilroy 264 Jesse Tannehill 263 64 Doc White 262 65 Rube Waddell 261 66 Jack Chesbro 260 67 Red Ehret 260 Carl Hubbell 260 Larry Corcoran 256 70 Chief Bender 255 71 Bob Gibson 255 Steve Carlton 254 73 Frank Killen 253 74 Paul Derringer 251 75 Win Mercer 251 Sam Jones 250 77 Ed Walsh 250 Eddie Cicotte 249 79 Stump Wiedman 249 Herb Pennock 247 81 Bobo Newsom 246 82 George Bradley 245 83 Hooks Dauss 245 Phil Niekro 245 Harry Howell 244 86 Juan Marichal 244 John Ward 244 Jack Quinn 243 89 Bert Blyleven 242 90 Deacon Phillippe 242 Bucky Walters 242 Sam Leever 241 93 Kid Gleason 240 94 Addie Joss 234 95 George Uhle 232 96 Carl Mays 231 97 Tom Seaver 231 Harry Staley 231 Earl Moore

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]]> By: Joe R http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-2/#comment-59318 Joe R Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:25:39 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-59318 This post compelled me to look stuff up. Chick Hafey career WARP3: 31.8 Holy christ, Adam Dunn has a 25.7 and he still has nearly a decade to go and plays defense like a blind man. This post compelled me to look stuff up.

Chick Hafey career WARP3: 31.8

Holy christ, Adam Dunn has a 25.7 and he still has nearly a decade to go and plays defense like a blind man.

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]]> By: Justin Bailey http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-57543 Justin Bailey Thu, 27 Nov 2008 02:23:26 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-57543 What Adam said. Research really isn't very hard, I don't think you have any excuse. What Adam said. Research really isn’t very hard, I don’t think you have any excuse.

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]]> By: johny http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-56747 johny Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:00:25 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-56747 All those who the worst hall of famers should be in a special wing:THE HALL OF FAME FOR THE CRAZIES. All those who the worst hall of famers should be in a special wing:THE HALL OF FAME FOR THE CRAZIES.

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]]> By: Braystreet http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-54273 Braystreet Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:31:20 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-54273 MP,Dizzy Dean(who definitely DOES belong in The Hall),advocated blacks being in the bigs in the 30's when few other whites opened their mouths on the subject(when they weren't denigrating blacks, that is.)And Diz and Satchel Paige were boys! MP,Dizzy Dean(who definitely DOES belong in The
Hall),advocated blacks being in the bigs in the 30’s when few other whites opened their mouths on
the subject(when they weren’t denigrating blacks,
that is.)And Diz and Satchel Paige were boys!

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]]> By: Braystreet http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-54272 Braystreet Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:23:33 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-54272 Tony Perez"Doggie" to his Reds teammates because he bit the pitcher with men in scoring position, and Orlando Cepeda are examples of men who compiled deceptively poor batting statistics du- ring a pitchers' era.As for Newhouser,he had a 21-win,18-win and 15-win season AFTER W.W Two,so his selection to Cooperstown isn't as bad as it appears.Red Schoendienst was,after Jackie Robin- son,the National League's best second baseman in the 50's. Tony Perez”Doggie” to his Reds teammates because
he bit the pitcher with men in scoring position,
and Orlando Cepeda are examples of men who compiled deceptively poor batting statistics du-
ring a pitchers’ era.As for Newhouser,he had a
21-win,18-win and 15-win season AFTER W.W Two,so
his selection to Cooperstown isn’t as bad as it appears.Red Schoendienst was,after Jackie Robin-
son,the National League’s best second baseman in
the 50’s.

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]]> By: Adam http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-54271 Adam Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:12:58 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-54271 ...good article though by the way. I should've mentioned that before the rant. cheers …good article though by the way. I should’ve mentioned that before the rant.

cheers

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]]> By: Adam http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-54270 Adam Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:11:09 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-54270 I know this post is months old, but I'm resurrecting it to leave a comment, and in contrast to the previous comments I'm actually going to take issue with your view on the one woman inductee. Did you read the wikipedia article on Effa Manley? Or anything else about her? She managed all aspects of the Eagles baseball club, guided it to a Negro League World Series, and made a huge difference in raising the profile of the entire Negro League. It’s widely acknowledged that she, and not her husband, was actually the Treasurer for the Negro National League, and that she was the most adept promoter and marketer in the league. Even more importantly she fought to get better schedules, better working conditions and better salaries throughout the entire league - she and her husband even sponsored a Puerto Rican league team to make sure that the players would have money coming in during the off-season. She fought to stop MLB teams from taking NNL players without compensation, and finally established the precedent that Negro League contracts should be honored by MLB clubs when she negotiated the sale of Larry Dobbs contract to the Cleveland Indians - making Dobbs the first black player in the American League by the way. After that MLB owners had to negotiate compensation instead of simply ignoring the preexisting contracts. On top of that she used the team and her standing to promote civil rights issues. These are monumental achievements for a black woman in the 1930s and 1940s. (I realize that it’s debatable whether Manley was actually black or not, but she was perceived to be black most of her life) I know this post is months old, but I’m resurrecting it to leave a comment, and in contrast to the previous comments I’m actually going to take issue with your view on the one woman inductee.

Did you read the wikipedia article on Effa Manley? Or anything else about her?

She managed all aspects of the Eagles baseball club, guided it to a Negro League World Series, and made a huge difference in raising the profile of the entire Negro League. It’s widely acknowledged that she, and not her husband, was actually the Treasurer for the Negro National League, and that she was the most adept promoter and marketer in the league.

Even more importantly she fought to get better schedules, better working conditions and better salaries throughout the entire league – she and her husband even sponsored a Puerto Rican league team to make sure that the players would have money coming in during the off-season.

She fought to stop MLB teams from taking NNL players without compensation, and finally established the precedent that Negro League contracts should be honored by MLB clubs when she negotiated the sale of Larry Dobbs contract to the Cleveland Indians – making Dobbs the first black player in the American League by the way. After that MLB owners had to negotiate compensation instead of simply ignoring the preexisting contracts.

On top of that she used the team and her standing to promote civil rights issues.

These are monumental achievements for a black woman in the 1930s and 1940s.

(I realize that it’s debatable whether Manley was actually black or not, but she was perceived to be black most of her life)

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2008/01/02/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/comment-page-1/#comment-54233 Paul Moro Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:43:58 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/33-men-and-one-woman-out-the-all-time-worst-hall-of-famers/#comment-54233 I don't feel too strongly for or against Jake Beckley. While I do have to give the guy props for being a consistent hitter throughout his career, if we're going to give credit to Beckley for hitting over .300 in the dead-ball era, then we need to account for the fact that for the first half of his career, his BAs weren't so superior to everyone else. From 1889-1899, the league batting average was .279. As a comparison, the MLB average in 2007 was .268. The argument that Beckley was a .300 hitter so often doesn't have as much weight when you consider this. He basically batted 11% better than the average hitter of his day, which today would translate to a BA of around .295. In fact, in 1894, everyone and their grandmothers hit over .300 (league average was .309). Don't get me wrong, it's still impressive. Just putting it into context. I don’t feel too strongly for or against Jake Beckley. While I do have to give the guy props for being a consistent hitter throughout his career, if we’re going to give credit to Beckley for hitting over .300 in the dead-ball era, then we need to account for the fact that for the first half of his career, his BAs weren’t so superior to everyone else. From 1889-1899, the league batting average was .279. As a comparison, the MLB average in 2007 was .268. The argument that Beckley was a .300 hitter so often doesn’t have as much weight when you consider this. He basically batted 11% better than the average hitter of his day, which today would translate to a BA of around .295. In fact, in 1894, everyone and their grandmothers hit over .300 (league average was .309). Don’t get me wrong, it’s still impressive. Just putting it into context.

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