Comments on: Digging into the Mysterious Case of Kyle Lohse http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:30:20 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55041 Paul Moro Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:47:00 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55041 Jeremy, I disagree. In the ideal world, I think GMs would want all players signed to a one-year deal with an unlimited amount of team-controlled option years. No one wants to guarantee multiple years if they could avoid it. But really, they have no choice for the most part. But in this instance, teams had that chance to offer a one-year deal which is something that all GMs should be looking for as long as there's no no-trade clause. They just didn't. And that's what I don't get. Jeremy, I disagree.

In the ideal world, I think GMs would want all players signed to a one-year deal with an unlimited amount of team-controlled option years. No one wants to guarantee multiple years if they could avoid it. But really, they have no choice for the most part.

But in this instance, teams had that chance to offer a one-year deal which is something that all GMs should be looking for as long as there’s no no-trade clause. They just didn’t. And that’s what I don’t get.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55040 Sarah Green Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:14:36 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55040 JeremyR, I think you make a good point. A one-year deal would be preferable from the Boras POV, once the big deal failed to pan out. JeremyR, I think you make a good point. A one-year deal would be preferable from the Boras POV, once the big deal failed to pan out.

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]]> By: JeremyR http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55053 JeremyR Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:44:31 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55053 I think you're missing part of what happened - Lohse/Boras either wanted to cash in like Silva, or get a 1 year contract so he can try to cash in again next year. It's quite possible that no one else offered a 1 year contract. Apparently even the Cardinals wanted an option for another year. And it would be a sign of weakness for future negotiations if Boras let him sign with Philly for that cheap, even for a year, after getting (from his point of view) an insulting 3 year offer. The Cardinals didn't have any real interest in Lohse until Pineiro went down. I think you’re missing part of what happened – Lohse/Boras either wanted to cash in like Silva, or get a 1 year contract so he can try to cash in again next year.

It’s quite possible that no one else offered a 1 year contract. Apparently even the Cardinals wanted an option for another year.

And it would be a sign of weakness for future negotiations if Boras let him sign with Philly for that cheap, even for a year, after getting (from his point of view) an insulting 3 year offer. The Cardinals didn’t have any real interest in Lohse until Pineiro went down.

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55052 Nick Kapur Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:47:34 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55052 Yeah, I'm amazed the Phillies couldn't scrap something together to sign Lohse in the end, especially with that injury to Lidge which threatens to send Myers back into the pen. I can only assume something must have become irrevocably broken in the relationship between Lohse/Boras and the Phillies. Like maybe Gillick said "you either take this offer now or we won't talk to you again" or something. Yeah, I’m amazed the Phillies couldn’t scrap something together to sign Lohse in the end, especially with that injury to Lidge which threatens to send Myers back into the pen. I can only assume something must have become irrevocably broken in the relationship between Lohse/Boras and the Phillies. Like maybe Gillick said “you either take this offer now or we won’t talk to you again” or something.

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]]> By: Coley Ward http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55051 Coley Ward Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:58:19 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55051 I think Pat Gillick was given a set amount of money to spend this offseason. In December, he offered it to Lohse, who turned it down. So, instead, Gillick gave it to Pedro Feliz. Then, when Lohse came back to accept the offer, the money was all gone. Of course, I still can't believe the Phillies, who are looking at a rotation that includes the struggling Kyle Kendrick and mind-bogglingly bad Adam Eaton couldn't scrape together an extra $5 million for one year of Lohse. I think Pat Gillick was given a set amount of money to spend this offseason. In December, he offered it to Lohse, who turned it down. So, instead, Gillick gave it to Pedro Feliz. Then, when Lohse came back to accept the offer, the money was all gone.

Of course, I still can’t believe the Phillies, who are looking at a rotation that includes the struggling Kyle Kendrick and mind-bogglingly bad Adam Eaton couldn’t scrape together an extra $5 million for one year of Lohse.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55050 Sarah Green Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:37:44 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55050 Paul, I think Boras just way overestimated Lohse, and way overestimated his own skill. He thought he could leverage Philly up with another offer---the classic Boras tactic. When he didn't get one, Philly realized their mistake, took their ball, and went home. Regarding intangibles versus sabermetrics, maybe that classic debate doesn't apply here. This Lohse situation is just a typical conundrum faced by any business---not just the baseball business. If you're running a company, and you have the option of hiring a guy who has decent but not remarkable skills and who is sort of an ass to boot, would you hire him? Probably not. You certainly wouldn't guarantee him $21 million. I know baseball execs aren't usually this logical, but let's not overthink this one. Paul, I think Boras just way overestimated Lohse, and way overestimated his own skill. He thought he could leverage Philly up with another offer—the classic Boras tactic. When he didn’t get one, Philly realized their mistake, took their ball, and went home.

Regarding intangibles versus sabermetrics, maybe that classic debate doesn’t apply here. This Lohse situation is just a typical conundrum faced by any business—not just the baseball business. If you’re running a company, and you have the option of hiring a guy who has decent but not remarkable skills and who is sort of an ass to boot, would you hire him? Probably not. You certainly wouldn’t guarantee him $21 million. I know baseball execs aren’t usually this logical, but let’s not overthink this one.

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]]> By: Roscoe http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55049 Roscoe Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:10:32 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55049 Lyle Kohse (as we called him in MN) is also prone to fits of attacking the door to the manager's office with a baseball bat. Have fun with that! Lyle Kohse (as we called him in MN) is also prone to fits of attacking the door to the manager’s office with a baseball bat. Have fun with that!

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]]> By: Michael Rand http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55048 Michael Rand Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:49:03 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55048 You make very logical points, but having witnessed the Kyle Lohse era in Minnesota, I can say that he got exactly what he deserved. Sabermetrics can be a useful tool, but gut instinct needs to be used on Lohse. He's a classic underachiever who will kill a team when they need him most. Good value or not, that's a wicked intangible. You make very logical points, but having witnessed the Kyle Lohse era in Minnesota, I can say that he got exactly what he deserved. Sabermetrics can be a useful tool, but gut instinct needs to be used on Lohse. He’s a classic underachiever who will kill a team when they need him most. Good value or not, that’s a wicked intangible.

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]]> By: Paul Moro http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55047 Paul Moro Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:05:01 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55047 I haven't been following this too closely - but how badly must have Boras pissed Philly off? At one time, they were willing to pay $21m. Did Boras not go back to them because he was scared it would hurt his pride? Did he give Philly a chance to top St. Louis' offer and they declined? I haven’t been following this too closely – but how badly must have Boras pissed Philly off? At one time, they were willing to pay $21m. Did Boras not go back to them because he was scared it would hurt his pride? Did he give Philly a chance to top St. Louis’ offer and they declined?

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]]> By: Cardinal70 http://umpbump.com/press/2008/03/17/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/comment-page-1/#comment-55046 Cardinal70 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:49:02 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/digging-into-the-mysterious-case-of-kyle-lohse/#comment-55046 To be fair, Mozeliak is one that is comfortable with at least some of the sabermetric principles. But being that the Cardinals already have four pitchers under contract that they expect to come back from injury this year, I think he's saying he'd rather have had some of them healthy than having to go out and spend money on a pitcher that might be replaced by year's end. To be fair, Mozeliak is one that is comfortable with at least some of the sabermetric principles. But being that the Cardinals already have four pitchers under contract that they expect to come back from injury this year, I think he’s saying he’d rather have had some of them healthy than having to go out and spend money on a pitcher that might be replaced by year’s end.

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