Comments on: Why Does Jim Rice Hate Manny Ramirez? http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:48:13 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-55952 Sarah Green Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:48:25 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-55952 Hmmm, maybe this explains it. I assumed the Watertown Daily Times was the local rag of Watertown Mass, a suburb of Boston. BUT IT IS, IN FACT, THE DAILY FISHWRAP OF WATERTOWN.....NEW YORK! [dun dun duuuuuunnnnnnnnnn!!!!!] I know there are a lot of Sox fans tucked away in upstate New York, but it's still the land of the enemy, by gum. SABOTAGE! Hmmm, maybe this explains it. I assumed the Watertown Daily Times was the local rag of Watertown Mass, a suburb of Boston. BUT IT IS, IN FACT, THE DAILY FISHWRAP OF WATERTOWN…..NEW YORK!

[dun dun duuuuuunnnnnnnnnn!!!!!]

I know there are a lot of Sox fans tucked away in upstate New York, but it’s still the land of the enemy, by gum. SABOTAGE!

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-55951 Sarah Green Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:43:09 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-55951 I agreed that Rice seemed to have a little bit of ornery old man in him. But I think the Q&A format wasn't well portrayed in that article. How can readers suss what exactly was happening there without knowing the context of Rice's quotes? I know The Waterdown Daily Times is hardly the Wall Street Journal, but even so...just taking quotes and slapping them down in black and white is not a great way to show readers what the vibe in the room actually was. We have no idea what the questions were that people asked him. Without knowing that, how can we really judge his answers? What if someone asked him, "Manny Ramirez is a great player, but what would you say his biggest weakness is?" What if someone asked him, "Do you think today's Little Leaguers should emulate Manny being Manny?" We have no idea. We're just stuck with a reporter who says that Rice was "gracious and often times hilarious" yet quotes that, in black and white, are neither. I agreed that Rice seemed to have a little bit of ornery old man in him. But I think the Q&A format wasn’t well portrayed in that article. How can readers suss what exactly was happening there without knowing the context of Rice’s quotes? I know The Waterdown Daily Times is hardly the Wall Street Journal, but even so…just taking quotes and slapping them down in black and white is not a great way to show readers what the vibe in the room actually was. We have no idea what the questions were that people asked him. Without knowing that, how can we really judge his answers? What if someone asked him, “Manny Ramirez is a great player, but what would you say his biggest weakness is?” What if someone asked him, “Do you think today’s Little Leaguers should emulate Manny being Manny?” We have no idea. We’re just stuck with a reporter who says that Rice was “gracious and often times hilarious” yet quotes that, in black and white, are neither.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-55950 melissa Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:19:22 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-55950 After reading the article it seems to me that Nick portrayed it in the correct context. There was nothing to suggest that Rice made the comments about Papelbon and "today's players" with his tongue in cheek. The remark about sports writers from his era being dead wasn't presented as a joke but I suppose you could try to justify it as such. Not having witnessed the conversation we don't know but it's not as if Nick has taken the quotes out of context. Rice was clearly bashing not only Manny but all current players by saying they play to get into the Hall of Fame and he played for the Red Sox. His remarks did seem self-aggrandizing to me. I do not understand why a former player such as Rice thinks he has to diminish current players on one hand then paint himself as the hero on the other. Rice seems like the bitter old man yelling, "you kids get off my lawn," when discussing Manny. Isn't it interesting that Rice is criticizing a guy that should be a first ballot Hall of Famer when he has been denied that honor? I think Nick's conclusion is warranted and justified based upon the article as I read it. After reading the article it seems to me that Nick portrayed it in the correct context. There was nothing to suggest that Rice made the comments about Papelbon and “today’s players” with his tongue in cheek. The remark about sports writers from his era being dead wasn’t presented as a joke but I suppose you could try to justify it as such. Not having witnessed the conversation we don’t know but it’s not as if Nick has taken the quotes out of context. Rice was clearly bashing not only Manny but all current players by saying they play to get into the Hall of Fame and he played for the Red Sox. His remarks did seem self-aggrandizing to me. I do not understand why a former player such as Rice thinks he has to diminish current players on one hand then paint himself as the hero on the other. Rice seems like the bitter old man yelling, “you kids get off my lawn,” when discussing Manny. Isn’t it interesting that Rice is criticizing a guy that should be a first ballot Hall of Famer when he has been denied that honor? I think Nick’s conclusion is warranted and justified based upon the article as I read it.

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]]> By: Mike Augisfat http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-55949 Mike Augisfat Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:22:46 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-55949 What you also failed to mentioned was some of the rest of the interview: Rice's most memorable moment on the diamond wasn't a home run or a spectacular catch in left field. It was being in the right place at the right time and doing the right thing for a boy in the stands on August 7, 1982 at Fenway Park. A line-drive off the bat of Red Sox first baseman Dave Stapleton struck 4-year old fan Jonathan Keane in the face during the nationally televised game. "His dad was just like, shocked," Rice said. "Everybody just stood there. I was in the dugout, so I came out and picked the kid up and took him to the clubhouse." After the game, team doctor Arthur Pappas said that Rice could have saved the boy's life. "I got a letter from the kid maybe three years ago," Rice said. "He graduated from Duke with honors. We have that picture up there in the main lobby of the Red Sox." For Rice, it was second nature to go the extra step that day, to be the hero. But Rice just saw it as a job he had to do. "Every day I'd go down to the ballpark and they'd put that "C" on me as captain of the ballclub," Rice said. "I had to set an example." Do you think Manny will ever remotely say anything close to that statement and story? I think not. Leave Rice alone and remember, most sportswriters that were around when Rice was breaking bats will tell you compared to today's stars he was a gentleman to interview. Eddie Murray was a HORRIBLE person and he got in. Stop abusing Rice for being old school when most of today's star could not hold his jock. What you also failed to mentioned was some of the rest of the interview:

Rice’s most memorable moment on the diamond wasn’t a home run or a spectacular catch in left field. It was being in the right place at the right time and doing the right thing for a boy in the stands on August 7, 1982 at Fenway Park.

A line-drive off the bat of Red Sox first baseman Dave Stapleton struck 4-year old fan Jonathan Keane in the face during the nationally televised game.

“His dad was just like, shocked,” Rice said. “Everybody just stood there. I was in the dugout, so I came out and picked the kid up and took him to the clubhouse.”

After the game, team doctor Arthur Pappas said that Rice could have saved the boy’s life.

“I got a letter from the kid maybe three years ago,” Rice said. “He graduated from Duke with honors. We have that picture up there in the main lobby of the Red Sox.”

For Rice, it was second nature to go the extra step that day, to be the hero. But Rice just saw it as a job he had to do.

“Every day I’d go down to the ballpark and they’d put that “C” on me as captain of the ballclub,” Rice said. “I had to set an example.”

Do you think Manny will ever remotely say anything

close to that statement and story? I think not.

Leave Rice alone and remember, most sportswriters that were around when Rice was breaking bats will

tell you compared to today’s stars he was a gentleman

to interview. Eddie Murray was a HORRIBLE person and he got in. Stop abusing Rice for being old school when most of today’s star could not hold his jock.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-55948 Sarah Green Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:23:06 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-55948 Nick, I think you typed too fast on this one---Let's take a step back and think a little more deliberately about what Jim Rice said, and the context he was talking in. Also, let's fact-check a couple of things from this post. To start, your statement of "the fact that most people think the only reason Rice has gotten as much support as he has is because the BWAA actually has too many old writers who are looking back through rose-colored nostalgia-tinted glasses" is only true of the people who think Jim Ed has no place in the HOF. Of Rice supporters, most people think the reason he isn't in the Hall yet is because the BBWAA has too many old writers who hold personal grudges against Jim Rice from the days when he was a player. But I think it's pretty clear that his statement about all the writers from his era being dead was supposed to be a joke---and a self-deprecating one at that ("Hey, I'm so old!"). In fact, given that he's described as being "often hilarious" in the Q&A session, I think (but of course, I don't know) that his comment about only Papelbon making the '75 team may be a joke as well. The only things that don't read to me like good-natured banter are the steroids accusations and the Manny comments. Clearly, Jim Rice is deeply invested in convincing fans (and perhaps himself) that the steroids scandal is over and that his beloved sport is clean. He betrays a little bit of ornery-old-man bias there, perhaps, as well as in the section where he talks about how he considered himself a team player, not like these spoiled youngsters of today dangnabbit. But I think most fans would also agree that baseball today is different---that many of today's stars think about me, myself, and I before they think about the team. They think about it when they are considering playing through an injury, when they're holding out for bigger contracts, even with the kind of pitches they swing at in the batter's box, if Johnny Damon's recent comments are to be believed. Yet as a player who has had a mixed relationship with the media---from negative coverage when he was the only black player in Boston to today, when he's actually a member of the media himself---I am surprised that he would make these comments about Manny. I would expect him to have sympathy with Ramirez, since Manny is also a player who has had an up-and-down relationship with the media. But human beings aren't always perfectly logical. Plus, I think Jim Rice has always been a little sensitive about his defensive skills, since playing left field was something he worked really, really hard at, yet was also an area where his level of play was always disparaged. If I'm Jim Rice, and people are calling Manny Ramirez a first-ballot lock for the Hall of Fame and not criticizing him for making bad mistakes in left field, I could see being maybe a little irritated by the apparent discrepancy. I guess I would just say that this was a candid Q&A with fans in Watertown, not a major media interview. It's not like he prepared these comments as part of his role as NESN post-game analyst, so maybe he was just being completely unguarded. Maybe he said a few things there, in the room, in the context of the conversation, that he wouldn't have chosen to have plucked out and splashed across the back page of the Boston Herald, say. Also, about the boy who was hit with a line drive---it seems clear to me that that came up as part of a question that someone in the audience must have asked about his most memorable moment on the diamond. I think it's a bit unfair to say he "just so happening to mention the time he allegedly..." etc etc. And I'm also not sure that "allegedly" is really warranted either---though I hadn't heard of it until recently, I've since heard it referenced by many different people, including hearing about a video of the event from Tom Caron on NESN. By saying "allegedly," you seem to be implying that it didn't actually happen, which would be incorrect. Just one other things---he isn't "arguably" an employee of the Red Sox. He is technically one, as he is still listed as an instructional batting coach, according to that article. I'm interested in his comments, because I'm a Sox fan and a Rice fan (and a Manny fan, for that matter), but to me, this post reads a little too much like the stereotypical blog post that is so often ripped by the mainstream press---taking comments out of context, shooting from the hip, typing first and asking questions later. To me, it feels like "gotcha!" journalism, which is really unexpected coming from cool-headed, analytical, middle-of-the-road Nick. Nick, I think you typed too fast on this one—Let’s take a step back and think a little more deliberately about what Jim Rice said, and the context he was talking in. Also, let’s fact-check a couple of things from this post.

To start, your statement of “the fact that most people think the only reason Rice has gotten as much support as he has is because the BWAA actually has too many old writers who are looking back through rose-colored nostalgia-tinted glasses” is only true of the people who think Jim Ed has no place in the HOF. Of Rice supporters, most people think the reason he isn’t in the Hall yet is because the BBWAA has too many old writers who hold personal grudges against Jim Rice from the days when he was a player. But I think it’s pretty clear that his statement about all the writers from his era being dead was supposed to be a joke—and a self-deprecating one at that (”Hey, I’m so old!”). In fact, given that he’s described as being “often hilarious” in the Q&A session, I think (but of course, I don’t know) that his comment about only Papelbon making the ‘75 team may be a joke as well.

The only things that don’t read to me like good-natured banter are the steroids accusations and the Manny comments. Clearly, Jim Rice is deeply invested in convincing fans (and perhaps himself) that the steroids scandal is over and that his beloved sport is clean. He betrays a little bit of ornery-old-man bias there, perhaps, as well as in the section where he talks about how he considered himself a team player, not like these spoiled youngsters of today dangnabbit. But I think most fans would also agree that baseball today is different—that many of today’s stars think about me, myself, and I before they think about the team. They think about it when they are considering playing through an injury, when they’re holding out for bigger contracts, even with the kind of pitches they swing at in the batter’s box, if Johnny Damon’s recent comments are to be believed.

Yet as a player who has had a mixed relationship with the media—from negative coverage when he was the only black player in Boston to today, when he’s actually a member of the media himself—I am surprised that he would make these comments about Manny. I would expect him to have sympathy with Ramirez, since Manny is also a player who has had an up-and-down relationship with the media. But human beings aren’t always perfectly logical. Plus, I think Jim Rice has always been a little sensitive about his defensive skills, since playing left field was something he worked really, really hard at, yet was also an area where his level of play was always disparaged. If I’m Jim Rice, and people are calling Manny Ramirez a first-ballot lock for the Hall of Fame and not criticizing him for making bad mistakes in left field, I could see being maybe a little irritated by the apparent discrepancy.

I guess I would just say that this was a candid Q&A with fans in Watertown, not a major media interview. It’s not like he prepared these comments as part of his role as NESN post-game analyst, so maybe he was just being completely unguarded. Maybe he said a few things there, in the room, in the context of the conversation, that he wouldn’t have chosen to have plucked out and splashed across the back page of the Boston Herald, say.

Also, about the boy who was hit with a line drive—it seems clear to me that that came up as part of a question that someone in the audience must have asked about his most memorable moment on the diamond. I think it’s a bit unfair to say he “just so happening to mention the time he allegedly…” etc etc. And I’m also not sure that “allegedly” is really warranted either—though I hadn’t heard of it until recently, I’ve since heard it referenced by many different people, including hearing about a video of the event from Tom Caron on NESN. By saying “allegedly,” you seem to be implying that it didn’t actually happen, which would be incorrect.

Just one other things—he isn’t “arguably” an employee of the Red Sox. He is technically one, as he is still listed as an instructional batting coach, according to that article.

I’m interested in his comments, because I’m a Sox fan and a Rice fan (and a Manny fan, for that matter), but to me, this post reads a little too much like the stereotypical blog post that is so often ripped by the mainstream press—taking comments out of context, shooting from the hip, typing first and asking questions later. To me, it feels like “gotcha!” journalism, which is really unexpected coming from cool-headed, analytical, middle-of-the-road Nick.

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]]> By: JE http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-49244 JE Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:47:26 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-49244 I agree with much of what you said, Lyndsay, but remember: the Deadskins, er, Redskins are golden here, no matter how pathetic the team does on the gridiron. (By the way, the Super Bowl champion Giants visit the White House tomorrow. Yay!) Ten to fifteen years from now, there will probably be more than enough homegrown Nats fans to carry a halfway decent team. That is not to say that there won\'t be plenty of Mets fans like me going to South Capitol Street to watch the games. I agree with much of what you said, Lyndsay, but remember: the Deadskins, er, Redskins are golden here, no matter how pathetic the team does on the gridiron. (By the way, the Super Bowl champion Giants visit the White House tomorrow. Yay!)

Ten to fifteen years from now, there will probably be more than enough homegrown Nats fans to carry a halfway decent team. That is not to say that there won\’t be plenty of Mets fans like me going to South Capitol Street to watch the games.

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]]> By: Lyndsay http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-49236 Lyndsay Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:46:24 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-49236 ...and I think that this is more of the reason than because they are bad...I don't care how good the Nats get, if I'm from Boston and I move to DC, I'd never switch my allegiance. same with anyone from NY or Philly who moves there. it just doesnt happen, no matter how good the team is. …and I think that this is more of the reason than because they are bad…I don’t care how good the Nats get, if I’m from Boston and I move to DC, I’d never switch my allegiance. same with anyone from NY or Philly who moves there. it just doesnt happen, no matter how good the team is.

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]]> By: Lyndsay http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-49235 Lyndsay Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:43:51 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-49235 also, one disadvantage that the Nats have is that the population of DC is by and large a transplant city - so everyone there roots for their home team. there are more Boston, NY and Philly fans there than there are "DC" fans, because there are very few native DCers left in the area. so there's no hometown loyalty the way there is in other cities. and I would challenge anyone actually born and raised in DC to disagree with me that the city hasn't been taken over by transplants. (I lived there for 9 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about). Also, sadly, that's where the disposable income - and luxury box revenue- is - with the Boston and NY fans. everyone's seen it in Camden - the O's get a lot of revenue from those teams fans. I think if the Nats were in the American League, this would be a whole different story. as it is, I could see the Nats getting more revenue from Phillies and Mets matchups than anywhere else. but being in the National League still doesn't help them any. then again, there COULD be the advantage that you have people coming in from the midwest or parts of the country that have never had a baseball team to root for, so recruiting fans has its challenges but also advantages. but right now they are basically trying to build a fanbase from the ground up, and trying to recruit fans from other established fanbases, which, in the Northeast, is definitely not an easy task. I think that is the main challenge for getting asses in the seats right now. also, one disadvantage that the Nats have is that the population of DC is by and large a transplant city – so everyone there roots for their home team. there are more Boston, NY and Philly fans there than there are “DC” fans, because there are very few native DCers left in the area. so there’s no hometown loyalty the way there is in other cities. and I would challenge anyone actually born and raised in DC to disagree with me that the city hasn’t been taken over by transplants. (I lived there for 9 years, so I think I know what I’m talking about). Also, sadly, that’s where the disposable income – and luxury box revenue- is – with the Boston and NY fans. everyone’s seen it in Camden – the O’s get a lot of revenue from those teams fans. I think if the Nats were in the American League, this would be a whole different story. as it is, I could see the Nats getting more revenue from Phillies and Mets matchups than anywhere else. but being in the National League still doesn’t help them any.
then again, there COULD be the advantage that you have people coming in from the midwest or parts of the country that have never had a baseball team to root for, so recruiting fans has its challenges but also advantages. but right now they are basically trying to build a fanbase from the ground up, and trying to recruit fans from other established fanbases, which, in the Northeast, is definitely not an easy task. I think that is the main challenge for getting asses in the seats right now.

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]]> By: Zvee Geffen http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-49233 Zvee Geffen Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:41:02 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-49233 I do also feel like when the Expos first moved to DC and became the Nats, there was all this excitement in the District about having a baseball team. ("Hey! Our Congressional representatives votes don't count, but at least we've got our own baseball team again!") But that excitement now seems to have died down. I think it will come back, eventually, if the Nationals can field a competitive team. It will also probably help if the Orioles keep sucking---a lot of Washingtonians got used to rooting for the O's, but if the O's are losing and the Nats are winning, they could be wooed. I do also feel like when the Expos first moved to DC and became the Nats, there was all this excitement in the District about having a baseball team. (”Hey! Our Congressional representatives votes don’t count, but at least we’ve got our own baseball team again!”) But that excitement now seems to have died down. I think it will come back, eventually, if the Nationals can field a competitive team. It will also probably help if the Orioles keep sucking—a lot of Washingtonians got used to rooting for the O’s, but if the O’s are losing and the Nats are winning, they could be wooed.

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]]> By: JE http://umpbump.com/press/2008/06/04/why-does-jim-rice-hate-manny-ramirez/comment-page-1/#comment-49232 JE Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:23:51 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2324#comment-49232 Sorry to have to keep making excuses for Washingtonians, Coley, but here\'s one more: a Metro trip to the Verizon Center to watch playoff basketball/hockey is much easier than taking two train lines to the Navy Yard station to see an early season game to see the lowly Nationals. While I agree that the luster of retro-stadiums has worn off, we still have to remember that, before 2005, Washington had been sans baseball for more than a generation. (Sorry, Peter Angelos, Baltimore doesn\'t count.) Therefore, management has always been aware that keeping Nationals fans in the stands requires more than just a new facility. A look at the revamped farm system demonstrates that the money is there, the patience is there, and this team will have the tools to compete in two to three years. Sorry to have to keep making excuses for Washingtonians, Coley, but here\’s one more: a Metro trip to the Verizon Center to watch playoff basketball/hockey is much easier than taking two train lines to the Navy Yard station to see an early season game to see the lowly Nationals.

While I agree that the luster of retro-stadiums has worn off, we still have to remember that, before 2005, Washington had been sans baseball for more than a generation. (Sorry, Peter Angelos, Baltimore doesn\’t count.) Therefore, management has always been aware that keeping Nationals fans in the stands requires more than just a new facility. A look at the revamped farm system demonstrates that the money is there, the patience is there, and this team will have the tools to compete in two to three years.

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