Trade Talk: Relievers, the Mets, Manny
As the days to the trade deadline melt away quicker than an ice cream cone dropped on a hot July sidewalk, the UmpBump staff email is lighting up with trade talk (and, of course, snark):
Paul: Now the Diamondbacks have Jon Rauch AND Randy Johnson. So can we still call Johnson Big Unit? He’s not even the biggest pitcher on his own team anymore.
Nick: I vote we call Rauch “Bigger Unit.”
Alejandro: Rauch is a tall mofo, ain’t he the tallest big leaguer?
Paul: Yes. Rauch is 6′11. Johnson is 6′10. But Rauch is also built like a tank. Johnson, well, looks like a johnson.
Sarah: So then Rauch isn’t the Big Unit. He’s more like the Huge Deuce?
Can this possibly be true?
Rockies were asking for Buchholz
The price for Fuentes appears to be pretty high. According to the Denver Post, the Rockies are looking for a premium starting pitcher in return. A Rockies source told the Denver Post that Colorado was asking for Clay Buchholz from the Red Sox or Ian Kennedy from the Yankees.
Coley: I don’t doubt they asked about Buchholz. But if that’s what they insisted on, then it’s no wonder Fuentes is still a Rockies player.
Sarah: No wonder that the Theo recently said that the bullpen help will have to come from within:
“It’s really almost a fantasy at this point to think that that we can make a move for that type of guy,” said Epstein. “It just rarely happens, and the price is so sky-high right now that we’d be doing a disservice to the organization to give up impact young players for a reliever who may or may not make us better. But we’re going to keep trying, I hope we can make something happen, but the answer definitely lies within.”
Maybe he’s wised up since the Gagne trade last year, which I was thinking about again just yesterday. It was such a bad, bad trade for the Red Sox. David Murphy is currently part of one of the best offensive outfields in the majors (his OBP isn’t that great, but he does have 13 homers so far…not too shabby for a guy many saw as just a AAAA kind of player), Engel Beltre was just Baseball America’s prospect of the week (or whatever they call it—he’s tearing shit up, basically), and Kason Gabbard—well, he’s on the DL and sort of fell apart a little bit this year. But even so. He still pitched better than Gagne.
Nick: Which all just makes it so amazing that the Diamondbacks got closer Jon Rauch for just Emilio Bonafacio, who will probably never be more than a bench player at best.
Stupid Jim Bowden. Why does he have to go and help the D-backs like that?
Coley: Nick, I think Bonafacio will be a starter next year. I’m not saying he should be. But I think he will be.
Nick: It’s crazy that people are rating Manny by RBI.
Sarah: I KNOW. It’s the talk of the town—and it’s driving me nuts.
Nick: Anyway, I’m going to write the What They Need for the Mets. I think they need two outfielders, because right now they are going with Endy Chavez and Fernadno Tatis in LF and RF.
Sarah: Is that what caused them to underachieve so woefully this year?
Nick: I don’t think they’ve underachieved. I think that 53-47 is about where this team should be. It’s an aged team.
Sarah: Well, I guess the perception was that Santana put them over the top, that they would be able to put distance between themselves and Philly….let alone the Marlins.
Nick: Yes, but their offense was secretly very suspect. Carlos Delgado, Carlos Beltran, Moises Alou, Luis Castillo, Brian Schneider…all are really old, and already in decline.
Sarah: Well, they might be able to get a future HOF leftfielder right about now…who is also old and Hispanic, like the rest of their team.
Nick: You mean trade for Manny?
Sarah: I think the Sox FO wants to get rid of him.
Nick: Really? You think Theo doesn’t want to pick up his option?
Sarah: I’m deeply suspicious. I’ve seen this pattern before. Boston’s front office always seems to spread dirt about their stars to prepare the masses for the inevitable trade/departure. Besides, he was Dan Duquette’s biggest signing, and Theo/Lucchino both seem to have some kind of Oedipal thing with the Duke.
Do you think relievers are getting more expensive than a full gas tank these days? And would the Sox really deal Manny? Would the Mets (or another team) even take him, or am I just making stuff up? (Probably the latter.) And more importantly, what do you think Jon Rauch’s new nickname should be?
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Surgeon General’s Warning: Do not attempt without the oversight of a licensed chiropractor.
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June 2nd, 2008 at 9:40 pm
These White Sox reunions get weirder and weirder. And by weirder I mean more homoerotic.
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June 3rd, 2008 at 1:37 am
Giants’ players standing on their heads to prove they don’t suck
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June 3rd, 2008 at 1:50 am
When people say the Giants suck, Aaron Rowand doesn’t pay them any mind. He just buries his head in the sand.
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June 3rd, 2008 at 10:49 am
Hey Tad…kiss my ass, we are second in the league in doubles.
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June 3rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Aaron Rowand is such a hard-nosed player that he feels the need to go nose-first at every possible opportunity.
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June 3rd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
“this is exactly what Manny does, I’m telling you!’
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July 25th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Nick, I think Carlos Beltran is going to be offended when he finds out that you grouped him together with Delgado, Schneider, Castillo, and Alou (because you just KNOW that he reads ALL the blogs). I don’t think Beltran is in decline just yet. Yes, he’s over the traditional peak age for players. But he’s still the best CFer in the NL, even if his ISOP is down. Next year? We’ll see. He’s got 3 more seasons on his contract and he’ll be 34 when it expires. I do expect that by that point, he may not even be an average CFer. But for now, he’s doing just fine.
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July 25th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Well, to be fair to me and to blog-reading Carlos Beltran, I had no idea this exchange was going to be made public.
I actually wonder for a second if I should include him in the list, but then I decided that a longer list supports my contention better, and the fact is that Beltran is in decline, even if he is just at the beginning of it. I didn’t say he sucks, just that he is in decline, which supported my point that the Mets offense was likely to be worse this year than in previous years.
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July 25th, 2008 at 10:37 am
For what it’s worth, Carlos ranks 9th among MLB OFers in runs created—pretty good.
But if you look at more common stats, he’s not doing all that well. He ranks 45th among MLB OFers in batting average, 24th in OBP, 23rd in OPS. Even in VORP, he’s still behind 16 other outfielders (though to be fair, most of those are corner guys).
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July 25th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Sarah, Beltran’s never been a batting average guy. So that’s no surprise. Consequently, his OBP is never going to be among the top of the league, but it’s certainly good enough. And playing in Shea, he’s at a handicap in terms of OPS. And VORP doesn’t take into account defense. Beltran is a top-5 defensive centerfielder to go along with the bat. Add in his stolen base success rates and he really is a great player.
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July 25th, 2008 at 11:48 am
I think a Manny trade will also have to depend on how Ortiz does when he comes back up.even if he’s hitting out of the park, that knee (and wrist, and any other future injuries) are a huge concern. and despite having Drew, Pedroia, and Youk in the lineup, you’re looking at a serious lack of power if both Manny and Ortiz are out. on the other hand, if Manny leaves, I’d like to see them go after Matt Holliday.
it’s probably inevitable, but I don’t want to see us give up Young Buck…I know he’s struggling (Curse of the no-hitter, dammit! why does NESN have to replay that game every other day?) but I think it will break Dennis Eckersley’s heart.
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July 25th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Oh, yeah, Paul. I wasn’t trying to contradict you. I was just interjecting that unless you watch Mets games, you could be forgiven for thinking he’s overpaid, or in decline, just because he won’t show up on a lot of leaderboards or even box scores.
And Lyndsay, I *really* don’t think the Red Sox will trade Buchholz—unless it is for a truly top-tier haul in return. Not some freakin’ reliever, for crying out loud.
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July 25th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Lyndsay, I’ve never heard any talk of a Manny trade, just the possibility that he might leave as a free agent this winter. Am I missing something? Is there actually speculation that he might be dealt?
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July 25th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
I don’t see a reason why the Sox should think all that hard about whether or not they should keep Manny. I don’t see any way that they would get anywhere close to equal value, which would obviously unnecessarily hurt their chances at a championship this year.
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July 25th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
I think trading Manny would be worth considering if the Sox were in fourth place. But you’re right, Paul. Trading him now would be crazy.
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July 25th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Like trading Nomar in 2004 was crazy?
I’m not saying I think they should do it. But it seems like a similar situation to me.
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July 25th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
I shouldn’t have said “trade”…I did mean free agency at the end of the season, and what the option is if they don’t resign him. of course, a lot of it is just the media trying to drum up some controversy. I did however get some amusement from the guy from Cranston, RI who called into EEI the other night and said “I say put the bum on waivahhs!”
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July 29th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Hey so, just to update the Manny-trade-talk speculation, I saw in the NY Post that the Mets have actually inquired about him…and Peter Gammons wrote that the Sox have put the word out to NL teams that they’d be paying his way the rest of the season, if they could get young talent in return. Gammons, incidentally, has also changed his tune a bit—from writing glowingly of Manny during the spring, to defending him from charges of striking out on purpose last week, to totally slamming him in yesterday’s column. Apparently, he connected the dots on the pitchers Manny has called in sick against, and they’re all hard-throwing righties. While I find that damning, I also think Gammons is a little harsh, saying that the Red Sox “sold their souls” to have Manny on the team.
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July 29th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I think the D-Backs are the best fit for Manny. The rumor is that they’re thinking of trading for Mark Teixeira and moving Connor Jackson to the outfield. But I think it makes more sense to trade for Manny and keep Jackson at first, because, believe it or not, Manny might represent a defensive upgrade over Jackson. The D-backs have the prospects and the Red Sox are on record saying they will eat the rest of Ramirez’s 2008 salary. So why not?
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July 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Manny is a defensive upgrade over no one. He lets like 35% of balls hit in his area fall. That’s just atrocious.
I still don’t think that the Sox will deal Manny after all these years. That’s a huge shot to their chance at the championship this year.
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July 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
I say no go on any kind of trade deadline deals on the part of Theo Epstein, Manny or no Manny involved – he doesn’t have a good track record, and I think he’s learned to make the major moves in the offseason. he knows he can’t get anyone that even comes close to Manny in terms of value. I do wish that Craig Hansen had a higher trade value, because I’d like to see him get dealt – they’ve given him many chances to clean it up and it’s time for him to go.
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July 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Paul, I don’t think the Sox will trade Manny, either. But, as Sarah points out, they did trade Nomar. So anything is possible.
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July 29th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
The difference between trading Nomar and Manny would be that Manny is more needed by this team than Nomar was to the team when he was traded. Nomar had shown that he was even more injury prone than the occasionally achy Manny. With Ortiz having been injured this year they really can’t afford to risk losing Manny as well. The other thing to consider is why would teams give up anything of value for him when they know Boston has soured on him? He has more value to help them win now than what they could get in return for him. I don’t think Epstein has any intention of trading him but I do believe that the Red Sox front office has wanted to prepare the fans for the fact that they will not pick up his option after the season.
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July 29th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
It would be impossible to replace Manny in the lineup, but I think the FO’s concern—if Gammons is right—is that Manny may just stop playing. That’s apparently why they had to call Scott Boras in and took Manny get MRIs on *both* knees; they weren’t going to have any of this 2006 crap where he just sits on the bench for a month. But if they can’t force him to play, it would clearly be better for the team to just trade him.
What I don’t understand is that this all seems to have metastasized from one interview Manny gave to the Herald a little less than two weeks ago, where he said he wanted his contract situation resolved. Was that a good idea? No. But anyone who expects more from Ramirez at this point must have spent the last 8 years under a rock somewhere. The Red Sox deigned to respond to his bait—they should have just ignored it—and now you’ve got a tit-for-tat situation where both sides are making it worse the more jabs they take at each other. Ugh.
I had a bad feeling when the Sox got rid of Tavarez. He was Manny’s BFF on the team, and probably worth keeping on the roster just to keep him happy.
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July 29th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I don’t know that I buy the “BFF” thing though Sarah – he’s still pretty tight with Ortiz and Lugo.
Melissa’s right on Nomar and Manny being completely different situations – Nomar’s trade value was sinking and he was injured, and had been of little use to them offensively. that was also unusual behavior for Nomar (though his insecurities had been building for quite some time), whereas this is pretty status quo for Manny. I think it caught me by surprise though because I, like many people, thought Manny had turned a corner after ‘07 – we kept hearing how he was all into meditation and yoga now and was all happy and zen. and even talking about how badly he wanted his number retired with Boston. I read that as him being eager to do whatever it took to stay, whereas maybe I should have seen that as him trying to push the front office to take care of his option situation already.
whatever, I am so done with all these trade speculations. I can’t wait until the trade deadline fucking passes and everything settles down, and every other at-bat on NESN isn’t punctuated by the word Manny.
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:36 am
He and Tavarez came up through the minors together, though—from what I understand, they were very, very close friends. Manny certainly gets along with Lugo and Ortiz, but he doesn’t rub their bald heads.
Nomar, also, had refused several lucrative deals offered him by the Red Sox because either he a) was determined to leave Boston or b) he was determined to get more money.
I too thought Manny had turned a corner last year—and even at the beginning of this year, I had no doubt that the Red Sox would pick up his option and he would retire here. Now that seems very unlikely. But I wonder what happened to set him off? Is it really just naked greed, as Peter Gammons would have it? His comments to the press haven’t seemed focused on the money, but focused on the FO’s alleged duplicity. But maybe, like Pedro, for him “respect” = “$$$$.”
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July 30th, 2008 at 9:56 am
and it seemed like it happened all of a sudden too…things seemed all hunky dory and then BOOM, he punches Youk, he pushes down George Costanza, he gets fined, he starts complaining to the media. and here I thought he was a peace-loving stoner doing yoga with his “Uncle Rico” (it figures that he would have an Uncle Rico – now why can’t we ever meet this guy?). makes you wonder – what the hell happened? did he just resent being disciplined by the team? oh Manny – you are an enigma wrapped in a riddle.
I’ll reiterate what I said as a comment to the Teixeira post – Manny to the Rockies for Holliday and Fuentes. NOW. Pull the trigger, Theo.
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July 30th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Respect = $$$$ is the formula most likely at play here with Manny, like most players. Manny has seemed to be pouting about not having his option picked up and it’s obvious the Red Sox don’t want to pay him the $20 million. Manny hasn’t changed who he is or his personality, he is the same guy he’s always been but now the team has decided he isn’t worth the trouble.
I have seen this same kind of scenario play out in Chicago with guys like Frank Thomas and Sammy Sosa. The team enables and defends the prima donna/ diva player when he is producing at his optimum level and when they decide he isn’t worth the money he wants they turn on him and offer him up to the media as a prima donna/ diva. Once the front office decides they are going to cut their losses with the guy they start to plant things off the record and allow information to get out that they would have hidden or downplayed in the past. The front office creates the monster and then when he no longer suits their purposes they expose him to the media as a monster. It’s unfortunate that they can’t just let the guy go without trashing him and trying to get public opinion on their “side.” It’s also disappointing to see a so-called journalist like Gammons allow himself to be a pawn of the Red Sox front office.
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