Comments on: Manny Roundup: Links and Random Thoughts http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/ In-your-face baseball commentary Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:48:13 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56447 Sarah Green Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:37:24 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56447 Oh, and yeah, the Sox are sucking. I think it's a combination of things, but to me, the main ones are that Tek is a black hole in the lineup and Ellsbury can't get on base to save his life. Really, even with Varitek sucking, I think if you had Ellsbury getting on base and wreaking havoc on the basepaths, this club would look very different. They're just sleepwalking out there! They need their spark plug! SPARK, Ellsbury! SPARK GODDAMMIT! Sounds like it's time for Lowell and Papi to call a big ol' team meeting. And then maybe Pedroia can give everyone noogies to break the tension. Oh, and yeah, the Sox are sucking. I think it’s a combination of things, but to me, the main ones are that Tek is a black hole in the lineup and Ellsbury can’t get on base to save his life. Really, even with Varitek sucking, I think if you had Ellsbury getting on base and wreaking havoc on the basepaths, this club would look very different. They’re just sleepwalking out there! They need their spark plug! SPARK, Ellsbury! SPARK GODDAMMIT!

Sounds like it’s time for Lowell and Papi to call a big ol’ team meeting. And then maybe Pedroia can give everyone noogies to break the tension.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56446 Sarah Green Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:33:53 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56446 I don't want to be a Manny apologist, but I'm tired of reading different versions of the same story every time I open a paper around here. What's the point of having an array of media outlets if they all parrot the same line? In his article, Charlie Pierce pointed out that under normal circs, we wouldn't have even heard about the incident with the traveling secretary. I'm sure there's plenty of dirt around that clubhouse that never gets out, so when it does, I get suspicious. Take Kevin Youkilis. He's a huge fan favorite---you never read anything bad about him in the papers---and yet I've heard from several different sources who've met him that he's a giant douchebag. If the Boston brass were going to get rid of him, I would readily bet that suddenly, we'd start reading Dan Shaughnessy columns about him, that he'd be on the back page of the Herald, and that the guys on WEEI would start fielding calls. And soon, before you know it, we'd have moved from "What, no, not Youk!!" to "Yeah, Youk had to go. What a jerk. He was in decline anyway." At least until it escalated, Manny didn't really do anything that different this year from what he's done before. Manny's not the Manny of 2002 anymore, but he was still the team's best hitter this season. I think it's highly debatable whether Bay is actually better---depending on what stats you look at, and depending on whether anyone else currently on the team can bat behind David Ortiz as well as Manny could. Christina K makes some good points, but it reminds me a little bit of a post I read on Sabernomics about the Teixeira trade, where they basically said it was pointless and demonstrated, through fancy stat-work, that he couldn't contribute that much more than Kotchman at this point in the season anyway. I mean, come ON. That's an impact trade no matter when you make it. I don't want to sound like an ornery old man, but sometimes the stat-massaging goes too far for yours truly. Anyway, to sum up, since I've gotten a little OT here, I would just say that though Manny is far from guiltless in this situation, there's been a kitchen-sink quality to the drubbing he's taken in the press the last couple of weeks that I think is hardly fair or balanced. That's what bothers me. I don’t want to be a Manny apologist, but I’m tired of reading different versions of the same story every time I open a paper around here. What’s the point of having an array of media outlets if they all parrot the same line? In his article, Charlie Pierce pointed out that under normal circs, we wouldn’t have even heard about the incident with the traveling secretary. I’m sure there’s plenty of dirt around that clubhouse that never gets out, so when it does, I get suspicious. Take Kevin Youkilis. He’s a huge fan favorite—you never read anything bad about him in the papers—and yet I’ve heard from several different sources who’ve met him that he’s a giant douchebag. If the Boston brass were going to get rid of him, I would readily bet that suddenly, we’d start reading Dan Shaughnessy columns about him, that he’d be on the back page of the Herald, and that the guys on WEEI would start fielding calls. And soon, before you know it, we’d have moved from “What, no, not Youk!!” to “Yeah, Youk had to go. What a jerk. He was in decline anyway.” At least until it escalated, Manny didn’t really do anything that different this year from what he’s done before.

Manny’s not the Manny of 2002 anymore, but he was still the team’s best hitter this season. I think it’s highly debatable whether Bay is actually better—depending on what stats you look at, and depending on whether anyone else currently on the team can bat behind David Ortiz as well as Manny could. Christina K makes some good points, but it reminds me a little bit of a post I read on Sabernomics about the Teixeira trade, where they basically said it was pointless and demonstrated, through fancy stat-work, that he couldn’t contribute that much more than Kotchman at this point in the season anyway. I mean, come ON. That’s an impact trade no matter when you make it. I don’t want to sound like an ornery old man, but sometimes the stat-massaging goes too far for yours truly.

Anyway, to sum up, since I’ve gotten a little OT here, I would just say that though Manny is far from guiltless in this situation, there’s been a kitchen-sink quality to the drubbing he’s taken in the press the last couple of weeks that I think is hardly fair or balanced. That’s what bothers me.

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]]> By: Nick Kapur http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56445 Nick Kapur Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:50:27 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56445 Good point Lyndsay - this team is sucking right now, other than Jason Bay. Good point Lyndsay – this team is sucking right now, other than Jason Bay.

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]]> By: Lyndsay http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56444 Lyndsay Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:47:49 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56444 Sarah - you made the point about the knee injury. what you didn't mention was that when Manny was asked which knee was hurt, HE FORGOT WHAT HE HAD TOLD THEM EARLIER and went with the other knee. that's why they MRI'd both of them. big red flag? yes, and a jackass move on his part. I would fine him just for being stupid. Manny apologists seem to have forgotten that baseball teams are an actual company, with employers, employees, and hierarchy. Theo and company are Manny's bosses. you don't trash the boss in public and then expect to be rewarded for it. you also don't get physical with other employees and expect your ass won't get canned. I liken the situation to everyone knowing a guy in their company who is a complete asshole but gets away wtih getting hammered at the x-mas party and saying inappropriate things because he brings in so much money. at some point though, it does affect company morale when there are no consequences, and when it's a ticking timebomb. I also think all this whining about "the sox org is so unfair!" (from NOMAR now, of all people) is stupid. the Sox have made the same moves and the same decisions that all the other MLB teams make. it's a business - and Manny, a veteran of the MLB business, knows that of all people. he can't be stupid. nobody spends their entire career with a team anymore. so his criticism (and Nomar's, and whatever other bitter players are out there) IS completely childish and immature at the very least. that being said, I go back to what I said in my previous post - there is some part of that lineup that actually likes this whole distraction, as it makes a good scapegoat for why the team can't come thru in the clutch. at some point though the rest of the team has to start providing better answers for why they flat-out suck. Sarah – you made the point about the knee injury. what you didn’t mention was that when Manny was asked which knee was hurt, HE FORGOT WHAT HE HAD TOLD THEM EARLIER and went with the other knee. that’s why they MRI’d both of them. big red flag? yes, and a jackass move on his part. I would fine him just for being stupid.

Manny apologists seem to have forgotten that baseball teams are an actual company, with employers, employees, and hierarchy. Theo and company are Manny’s bosses. you don’t trash the boss in public and then expect to be rewarded for it. you also don’t get physical with other employees and expect your ass won’t get canned. I liken the situation to everyone knowing a guy in their company who is a complete asshole but gets away wtih getting hammered at the x-mas party and saying inappropriate things because he brings in so much money. at some point though, it does affect company morale when there are no consequences, and when it’s a ticking timebomb. I also think all this whining about “the sox org is so unfair!” (from NOMAR now, of all people) is stupid. the Sox have made the same moves and the same decisions that all the other MLB teams make. it’s a business – and Manny, a veteran of the MLB business, knows that of all people. he can’t be stupid. nobody spends their entire career with a team anymore. so his criticism (and Nomar’s, and whatever other bitter players are out there) IS completely childish and immature at the very least.

that being said, I go back to what I said in my previous post – there is some part of that lineup that actually likes this whole distraction, as it makes a good scapegoat for why the team can’t come thru in the clutch. at some point though the rest of the team has to start providing better answers for why they flat-out suck.

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]]> By: Lyndsay http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56443 Lyndsay Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:34:20 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56443 I think Francona and the other 8 hitters in the lineup, AND Dave Magadan, like that the Manny situation overshadows the more serious problem that is the lack of clutch hitting right now. No one can tell me that Manny was such an evil omnipresence that he was preventing the other 8 from driving in runs. while the Boston fans today are like "yay! Jason Bay! he was a hero last night!" I looked at it as, we needed THE NEW GUY, from a national league team, who just came in off a plane and has never faced AL pitching, to bat in our only TWO runs in a 12-inning game last night? after a plethora of opportunities to drive one in and end that game? oh yeah, it was all Manny's fault that they all SUCK at the plate right now. Francona and Magadan have no answers for that right now, and I think that is more troubling. I don't see the offense magically coming alive because the big bad Manny monster is gone. after asking Varitek how much better he feels now that Manny is gone, I'd like to ask him WHY he continues to strike out in 3 pitches!!! I think Francona and the other 8 hitters in the lineup, AND Dave Magadan, like that the Manny situation overshadows the more serious problem that is the lack of clutch hitting right now. No one can tell me that Manny was such an evil omnipresence that he was preventing the other 8 from driving in runs. while the Boston fans today are like “yay! Jason Bay! he was a hero last night!” I looked at it as, we needed THE NEW GUY, from a national league team, who just came in off a plane and has never faced AL pitching, to bat in our only TWO runs in a 12-inning game last night? after a plethora of opportunities to drive one in and end that game? oh yeah, it was all Manny’s fault that they all SUCK at the plate right now. Francona and Magadan have no answers for that right now, and I think that is more troubling. I don’t see the offense magically coming alive because the big bad Manny monster is gone. after asking Varitek how much better he feels now that Manny is gone, I’d like to ask him WHY he continues to strike out in 3 pitches!!!

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]]> By: Ben L http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56442 Ben L Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:13:45 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56442 Yes, there are two sides to every fight and I don't see it all... but frankly over the last couple of years we've seen several phantom injuries. Right now, he looks more worried about his next contract than winning the big one. As for trashing players who leave... I think that statement is a little overrated. Take Nomar for example. It was very clear he wasn't part of the 2004 culture and his defense was becoming a liability, add to the fact he started bashing Boston for not giving him a ridiculous contract in line with Jeter and Arod. That said, don't get me wrong, I've been a vigorous defender of Manny for a while now. But it was starting to get to the point where a divorce was best for both parties. On a different note, I think Bay is going to like Fenway, see his triple last night? That was an out at virtually every other stadium. Yes, there are two sides to every fight and I don’t see it all… but frankly over the last couple of years we’ve seen several phantom injuries. Right now, he looks more worried about his next contract than winning the big one.

As for trashing players who leave… I think that statement is a little overrated. Take Nomar for example. It was very clear he wasn’t part of the 2004 culture and his defense was becoming a liability, add to the fact he started bashing Boston for not giving him a ridiculous contract in line with Jeter and Arod.

That said, don’t get me wrong, I’ve been a vigorous defender of Manny for a while now. But it was starting to get to the point where a divorce was best for both parties.

On a different note, I think Bay is going to like Fenway, see his triple last night? That was an out at virtually every other stadium.

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]]> By: Sarah Green http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56441 Sarah Green Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:18:19 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56441 Thanks, Melissa. I don't know why there's this pattern of trashing guys---it seems as anathema to Theo's stated business model as a $160 million, 8-year contract. Uff da. Thanks, Melissa. I don’t know why there’s this pattern of trashing guys—it seems as anathema to Theo’s stated business model as a $160 million, 8-year contract. Uff da.

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]]> By: melissa http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-56440 melissa Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:11:48 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-56440 Sarah, What a great overview and analysis of the whole "Manny" situation. I completely agree with your assertions here and also have wondered why teams have to trash a guy when they've decided to go a different direction. Schilling's quote seems to be a pretty accurate assumption of things as well. When all of the Manny trade talk started I did not think Boston would want to lose him from their lineup regardless of how much they considered him to be a pain. There is no doubt the front office had to have been trashing him off the record and I think that says more about them than Manny. I guess they felt they had to sway public opinion against him to get rid of him, I am so tired of that approach by management. If you can't tell your fans we are doing this because we feel it gives us the best chance of winning a World Series, perhaps you shouldn't be doing it. Considering that they trashed the guy and wanted to dump him I am surprised they were able to get a guy in return that really should fit in nicely and help this team to continue winning. Sarah,
What a great overview and analysis of the whole “Manny” situation. I completely agree with your assertions here and also have wondered why teams have to trash a guy when they’ve decided to go a different direction. Schilling’s quote seems to be a pretty accurate assumption of things as well. When all of the Manny trade talk started I did not think Boston would want to lose him from their lineup regardless of how much they considered him to be a pain. There is no doubt the front office had to have been trashing him off the record and I think that says more about them than Manny. I guess they felt they had to sway public opinion against him to get rid of him, I am so tired of that approach by management. If you can’t tell your fans we are doing this because we feel it gives us the best chance of winning a World Series, perhaps you shouldn’t be doing it. Considering that they trashed the guy and wanted to dump him I am surprised they were able to get a guy in return that really should fit in nicely and help this team to continue winning.

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]]> By: Zvee Geffen http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-50469 Zvee Geffen Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:11:22 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-50469 I think it means I get to go to both the bachelor AND the bachelorette parties!! Word, indeed. I think it means I get to go to both the bachelor AND the bachelorette parties!! Word, indeed.

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]]> By: Kirk Miller http://umpbump.com/press/2008/08/01/manny-roundup-links-and-random-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-50466 Kirk Miller Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:32:30 +0000 http://umpbump.com/press/?p=2606#comment-50466 I'm on vacation in Canada, so not much time to say much except that my team is finally moving up in the standings, which feels rewarding. Can't wait for Papi to return for the stretch run. I’m on vacation in Canada, so not much time to say much except that my team is finally moving up in the standings, which feels rewarding. Can’t wait for Papi to return for the stretch run.

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